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10 months ago ::
Sep 08, 2012 - 3:41PM
#1
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Date Joined:
Apr 12, 2008
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Before 4E, we had the Great Wheel cosmology with eleventy-hundred planes to explore. 4E did a lot of swooping changes and condensed them down to the World Axis cosmology. I realize it's a bit soon in the playtest phase to be worrying too much about planar exploration, but the question still stands: which do you prefer?
My own opinion:
I prefer the Great Wheel cosmology. I loved all of the fiddly little planes that were presented. Ethereal Plane, Astral Plane, Elemental Planes, Para-Elemental Planes, Quasi-Elemental Planes, Negative Energy Plane, Positive Energy Planes, Demi-Planes....I loved them. I have no doubt that I have read the 1E Manual of the Planes hundreds of times. Sure, 90% of those planes would never be explored by PCs, but they were wonderful to read about and there was always the chance that monsters could come from them. I still hold the 1E MotP as one of the best RPG books released for D&D, both for crunch and for fluff.
In fond memory of Mark "Wrecan" Monack.
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10 months ago ::
Sep 08, 2012 - 3:56PM
#2
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Date Joined:
Jan 28, 2008
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If I had to pick one - or the other - it would be the Great Wheel.
However - I would prefer the Planes to be represented as inaccessable by mortals.
Perhaps even "death" is the only way you can travel the Planes.
The Planes are realms of extremes - absolutes - and, as far as the Great Wheel, somewhat convoluted concepts of buffet philosophy.
A great big Matrix Trilogy - totally a mess, but conceptually fun to play around in.
A HUGE fan of Demi-Planes though... monstrously so - and those should be where mortals get to "play." Did 4th Edition have Demi-Planes?
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10 months ago ::
Sep 08, 2012 - 4:51PM
#3
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Date Joined:
May 26, 2012
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I prefer the great wheel cosmology, as long as it is seen symbolically and has the flexibility of including smaller demiplanes, multiple worlds in the prime material, and non-aligned planes.
I like to think of the great wheel of a way of categorizing planes. Any plane that is lawful good would in a sense be heavenly, a plane that is lawful evil is hellish, a plane that is chaotic evil is abyssal, etc.
They shouldn't be accessable except through the aforementioned death, and top level spells such as astral projection and gate.
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10 months ago ::
Sep 08, 2012 - 5:09PM
#4
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I much prefer the World Axis. I even retro-fit the cosmology into my v3.5 homebrew, as a sorta nod to 4e  . My Cosmology Notes
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There are two D&D cosmologies discussed in these notes: the Great Wheel (used in v.3.5 and earlier editions) and the World Axis (used in 4e). Likewise, two supplements are referred to: Manual of the Planes for 3e and its counterpart for 4e. All planar traits mentioned below are as described on pages 7-14 of the 3e MotP.
Knights of Everest uses the World Axis cosmology, which is described on pages 160 and 161 of the 4e DMG and pages 12 and 13 of the 4e Manual of the Planes. This article is not an attempt to actually convert the 4e MotP to 3e. It’s merely some quick and dirty notes on how I’d use the World Axis cosmology in 3e.
The Astral Sea is much like its counterpart in the Great Wheel. Spells that access the astral plane now access the Astral Sea instead. Unlike its counterpart however, the Astral Sea is not omnipresent (see ‘Planar Interactions’ below); that is, it doesn’t link with virtually every other plane. You can therefore ignore the information for astral links presented on page 48 of the 3e MotP. Likewise, ignore any mention of traveling to other planes via the spell astral projection. Instead, use the information for veils of color given on page 87 of the 4e MotP.
The Astral Sea has the following Traits: No Gravity, Normal Time, Infinite Size, Alterable Morphic Trait, No Elemental or Energy Traits, Mildly Neutral-Aligned, Enhanced Magic. These traits are as written for the astral plane (see page 47 and 48 of the 3e MotP).
The Elemental Chaos is an amalgam of the 3e elemental planes and limbo. It has the following traits: Subjective Directional Gravity, Normal Time, Infinite Size, No Energy-Dominant Traits, Highly Morphic, Sporadic Dominant-Element, Strongly Chaos-Aligned, Wild Magic (as written for Limbo on page 93 of the 3e MotP). The Elemental Chaos can be controlled as described for Limbo on pages 93 and 94.
There are no Primordials in Knights of Everest, unlike the 4e cosmology. The Elemental Chaos is unruled (as described in the sidebar ‘Who Rules the Elemental Planes’ on page 84 of the 3e MotP).
The Feywild has the following traits: Normal Gravity, Normal Time, Finite Size, Alterable Morphic, No Elemental or Energy Traits, Mildly Neutral-Aligned, Enhanced Magic (as written for the plane of faerie on page 210 of the 3e MotP). Elves call the feywild by its proper name, Arvanaith.
The Shadowfell is essentially the plane of shadow from 3e (as mentioned on page 15 of the 4e MotP, in the sidebar discussing the Great Wheel). It has the following traits: Normal Gravity, Normal Time, Finite Size, No Elemental or Energy Traits, Mildly Neutral-Aligned, Enhanced Magic, Impeded Magic (both as written for the plane of shadow on page 60 of the 3e MotP).
The information on shadow links (page 60) applies to the Shadowfell.
Planar Interactions: Planar interaction is described on page 15 of the 3e MotP. Examine the World Axis diagram (above), notice that the Astral Sea is the ‘upper’ part and the Elemental Chaos is the ‘lower’ part of the cosmology. The Material World serves as the ‘axis’ with the Feywild and the Shadowfell as parallel planes.
The Astral Sea is separate from the Material Plane; it is not a transitive plane (unlike its counterpart in the Great Wheel). The Elemental Chaos is likewise a separate plane.
The Feywild and the Shadowfell are both coexistent and conterminous with the Material Plane. In the World Axis cosmology, they are termed parallel planes (as mentioned on page 8 of the 4e MotP). Spells that access the astral plane (in the Great Wheel) now access the Feywild (in the World Axis). Likewise, spells that access the ethereal (in the Great Wheel) now access the Shadowfell (in the World Axis).
There is no ethereal plane in the World Axis cosmology. This affects a number of spells and magic items that duplicate those spells (ported from the sidebar ‘Without the Ethereal’ on page 55 of the 3e MotP):
* The following spells either do not function or do not exist: ethereal jaunt, etherealness, and secret chest.
* The following spells have elements that do not function without an ethereal plane: Dimensional anchor, invisibility purge, see invisibility, true seeing, and spells with the force descriptor, such as magic missile and wall of force. When using these spells, ignore any reference to the ethereal plane, other elements function as normal.
* The blink spell works by accessing the Shadowfell. Ain't ya glad you asked? Well, I am .
/\ Art
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10 months ago ::
Sep 08, 2012 - 5:15PM
#5
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Date Joined:
Apr 12, 2008
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Ain't ya glad you asked? Well, I am .
I am, indeed, glad I asked.
I enjoy viewing the opinions of others, whether I share them or not.
In fond memory of Mark "Wrecan" Monack.
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10 months ago ::
Sep 08, 2012 - 5:21PM
#6
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Ain't ya glad you asked? Well, I am .
I am, indeed, glad I asked.
I enjoy viewing the opinions of others, whether I share them or not.
I'm being silly, not snarky. My sblock dropped half a screen (at least). Didn't mean to over do it .
/\ Art
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10 months ago ::
Sep 08, 2012 - 6:53PM
#7
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Date Joined:
Aug 29, 2008
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I really liked the World Axis when it came out--I thought it was clearly superior to the Great Wheel. Now I've softened on it a bit and I marginally prefer it over the GW. I think it was the newness that drew me in. While the World Axis is still closer to what I prefer in my game, there is something that feels a bit incomplete to me, but I can't put my finger on what it is.
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10 months ago ::
Sep 08, 2012 - 6:59PM
#8
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Before 4E, we had the Great Wheel cosmology with eleventy-hundred planes to explore. 4E did a lot of swooping changes and condensed them down to the World Axis cosmology. I realize it's a bit soon in the playtest phase to be worrying too much about planar exploration, but the question still stands: which do you prefer?
While I liked both cosmologies, I have more fond memories of the great wheel. Of course, that's probably due to the fact that AD&D 2e gave us Planescape, which was awesome. That being said, what I'd like to see for DDN is a book that presents both the Axis and the Wheel, as well as a guide to creating one's own cosmologies. While D&D does have it's own default flavors, the game, at it's heart, is an instrument for us to tell our own stories and have fun. I really want it to keep that flexibility regardless of what default flavors they go with.
Why Mechanics-Alignment Integration is Bad
Show
so why even play a fighter if you can play the paladin the exact same way behaviorally and get added power to boot. "Paladin" is about accepting better game-enhancing mechanics at the price of more rigid in game behavior.
Really? So it goes something like this?
Fighter: "I want to be a paladin."
NPC: "Really?"
Fighter: "Yes."
NPC: "Very well." Starts reading from a holy book while still in-character "Do you accept having to choose and stick to the lawful good alignment, eventhough neither of us actually knows that it exists or what it is?"
Fighter: "I do."
NPC: "Do you reject good game balance because you accidentally rolled a high Charisma?"
Fighter: "What?"
NPC: "I don't know what it means either."
Fighter: "Oh. Umm, ok I do."
NPC: "In the name of all that is metagamey and broken, accept these better game enhancing mechanics."
Fighter: "These what?"
NPC: "Just get out there and try to fulfill a million different people's notion of good while not violating and part of any of them."
So the system is designed such that every single hit needs to be described to avoid confusion? Here's a scenario. The players are nudists, everybody in the world are nudists, it's not weird, it's totally normal in this land. They are naked and they fight drakes taking damage throughout, but healing up with surges. Later they meet the guy who raised the drakes.
Part 1: I didn't describe any of the hits. What does he see?
Part 2: Lets say I described the drakes as biting the players, yet they healed up. What does he see?
D20 Modern Toon PC Race.
Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.
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10 months ago ::
Sep 08, 2012 - 7:08PM
#9
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Date Joined:
Aug 29, 2008
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Before 4E, we had the Great Wheel cosmology with eleventy-hundred planes to explore. 4E did a lot of swooping changes and condensed them down to the World Axis cosmology. I realize it's a bit soon in the playtest phase to be worrying too much about planar exploration, but the question still stands: which do you prefer?
While I liked both cosmologies, I have more fond memories of the great wheel. Of course, that's probably due to the fact that AD&D 2e gave us Planescape, which was awesome. That being said, what I'd like to see for DDN is a book that presents both the Axis and the Wheel, as well as a guide to creating one's own cosmologies. While D&D does have it's own default flavors, the game, at it's heart, is an instrument for us to tell our own stories and have fun. I really want it to keep that flexibility regardless of what default flavors they go with.
I'd be all for this and I think that while we're getting edition neutral products, this one would really be handy to have. I think that the advice on building one's own comsmology would be welcomed by a lot of people.
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10 months ago ::
Sep 08, 2012 - 7:46PM
#10
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- Forum Guide
- Hero Craftsman Gold Medalist
- Master Dungeon Master
Date Joined:
Jun 23, 2005
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I see no reason the game has to choose. The only difference between the Great Wheel and the World Axis is the relationship of these planes to one another. In the Great WHeel, they Outer PLanes are rigidly mapped to border one another. In the World Axis, they are all floating about in the Astral Sea. Both can be true.
Just present each plane separately and then have a chapter called "Cosmologies" in which you offer several ways that these planes are can relate to one another. Let the reader choose which he likes, or offer him the tools to design his own cosmology.
Edited to add: And this is exactly how the designers said they want to do a Manual of the Planes, at GenCon just a few weeks ago.
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