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Dungeons & Dra.. Dark Sun Please WotC straighten out whatever legal...
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Switch to Forum Live View Please WotC straighten out whatever legal issues exist between you and the AoA group.
9 months ago  ::  Sep 09, 2012 - 1:17PM #11
Ozmodious
Date Joined: Feb 24, 2010
Posts: 107
I remember the good ole days when you could find homemade modules and characters all over the internet. I realize that there were some bad eggs out there but this kind of thing only helped sales. Not sure why open source stuff can't be out there as long as folks are not trying to make money on it
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9 months ago  ::  Sep 10, 2012 - 9:22AM #12
DontEatRawHagis
Date Joined: Sep 20, 2010
Posts: 862
One day I want to make a database of all my old DM materials. I wish I could do that without having it be either a money sink or filled with unsorted fluff. Sections for every different Roleplaying game with sub-categories.

My Dark Sun campaign had so many NPCs I created that I actually had to make a giant word document for the guy taking my place as DM. His response, "I think I'll just start a Forgotten Realms game". 
Ant Farm
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9 months ago  ::  Sep 11, 2012 - 10:52AM #13
Grummore
Date Joined: May 29, 2001
Posts: 1,126
Hey DERH, mind sending me that files by email?

I'm rather curious!

Thanks.

Just PM me I will send my email over. 
The Siltskimmer Page - www.siltskimmer.org
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9 months ago  ::  Sep 13, 2012 - 5:12PM #14
Alphastream1
  • Dragon Slayer
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Date Joined: Jan 31, 2006
Posts: 4,616
This is one of those events that can't be explained simply. What I can most easily state with absolute certainty is that this is in no way "WotC just not caring at all anymore for the fans of the current edition".

I'll do my best to recount what I believe to be the situation. I'm an admin, but I'm often not involved in direct discussions. Because of that, some of what is written below may be incorrect.

Phase 1: Con Only
The original concept for Ashes of Athas was a convention-only program. Chapters of three adventures, released at D&DXP (Winter Fantasy), Origins, and Gen Con. We started that way, but there was enough interest and support that at some point Wizards agreed to consider additional distribution.

Phase 2: Distribution Window
The decision was to allow distribution of the adventures through other conventions and also to allow a narrow distribution window for home play. Distribution would be through Baldman's site, confined to a narrow time-frame of one month after a chapter had run at two of the main conventions. Chapter One ran at D&DXP and then at Origins, then was available for a one-month period of time. Gamers could go to the Baldman site, request the adventures, and receive them some time after that. After a month, the window closed. The same happened for Chapter Two.

Phase 3: No Distribution
I'm not entirely sure what happened, but at some point either the popularity of the program or the discussions we were having with WotC about larger distribution opportunities had the opposite effect and created worries that caused a ceasing of distribution. There are two concerns that I consider the most likely. The first is quality. When an entity (Baldman Games and volunteers) is providing content, there is the chance that the content may be perceived as coming from WotC in its entirety, and that any problems with the content would be attributable to WotC. In an extreme case, imagine something really bad and how it would play out if we put that in an adventure and then someone felt Wizards condoned that. In a less extreme case, someone might dislike something, perhaps finding it to be of low quality, and attribute that to Wizards. One option would be to have WotC professionally edit and develop the content, but it seems very likely that there is far too much content for that to be cost-effective. I've had the pleasure of working on Dark Sun content for DDI, and I can say with certainty that Wizards staff are really at the top of their game. Their development and editing is better than ours. At the same time, I think that fans are okay with that (as they are with Living Forgotten Realms, which sees distribution through specific channels).

The second likely concern is intellectual property. There is often at Wizards a concern that allowing any distribution can weaken the brand or WotC's ownership. I don't frankly feel this concern is valid, but it could perhaps be an issue.

Current State
There is no question that the lack of distribution has hurt our campaign. Gamers at Gen Con 2011 showed up in huge numbers, but having largely having played the previous chapters. That was no longer the case at Gen Con 2012. Very few gamers can attend even two of the major conventions and that means they fall behind. Our campaign is story-driven, so it hurts play when DMs and players are not connected to the story. Most players of Chapter 6 adventures had not played Chapter 4 or Chapter 5.

If you read the editorial for the Dark Sun month of DDI, heard the mentions of the program in official podcasts, or have been to conventions where Wizards staff love wearing Ashes of Athas T-Shirts, you can see the the support that Wizards shows our campaign. Unfortunately, a developer might really dig the campaign, but they aren't in the team that deals with distribution concerns. So, while overall there is a lot of support for AoA, somehow we have this issue within WotC. The AoA admin team, Baldman Games, WotC Organized Play, we are all working on resolving this issue. It isn't simple, for various reasons.

What Doesn't Help
Badmouthing Wizards doesn't help at all, and isn't accurate. WotC's concerns aren't at all about not wanting us to have great games. They are actually about ensuring that we always get great games. Illegal distribution doesn't help (and we are really glad to have not seen any... thank you!).

What Does Help
Showing your interest in seeing AoA's adventures distributed helps. In particular, it is great to hear the reasons why you want to see the AoA campaign become available. It may also be helpful if you are fine with this not being officially edited and developed by WotC, and if you are okay with this offering having a slightly lower quality as a result. Communicating here, via Customer Service, in-person when you see Wizards staff at conventions... all could be effective.

In the meantime, the admins are staying focused on this issue. We really believe it is important for these adventures to be distributed. This is arguably the longest Dark Sun campaign ever created for the setting. It ties one other, but that one really doesn't have a coherent story. We think this campaign will create great value for Wizards of the Coast customers not just for 4E but for the brand well into the future.

Regardless, we are working on Chapter 7, which will premiere at Winter Fantasy in January. We believe it will be a fantastic part of the campaign!
Follow my blog and Twitter feed with Dark Sun campaign design and DM tips!

Dark Sun's Ashes of Athas Campaign is now available for home play (PM me with your e-mail to order the campaign adventures).
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9 months ago  ::  Sep 16, 2012 - 12:52PM #15
waxwingslain
Date Joined: Sep 25, 2011
Posts: 312
Great post--thanks for spending the time to explain things in detail.

I hear WotC's concerns on the first point. Although I feel the AoA adventures have been top-quality in terms of story, creativity, play, etc., they are not copy-edited to the level a professionally published product is. While I've spotted typos and such in WotC products in the past--and we all remember things like the +18 attack bonus tareks from Marauders of the Dune Sea--generally they adhere to professional standards of copy editing. There are far more errors in AoA than would be acceptable in a printed product.

I get it: if the AoA products were published by a professional corporation, they'd have hired a professional copy editor to give them the once-over before putting them into print, and Baldman Games simply doesn't have resources like that.

However (and this also addresses the second point), I think that over the past decade or more, the customer base for RPGs has evolved in their outlooks so that not all products for a certain rules system are automatically thought of as part of the core company. Wasn't that the point of open-source systems like d20? Consumers would become conoisseurs of the game, and would think, "I really like the adventures Baldman puts out" and "I think Kobold Games' adventures are really crappy" without lodging the idea of WotC = crappy (or even WotC = great) in their minds. And I think that worked--look what happened with Paizo and Pathfinder.

So it seems a real step backwards into a 1980s mindset when WotC's business department puts such a massive stranglehold on AoA. (I'm remembering how Nintendo would refuse to "certify" some company's NES cartridges). The risks Alphastream mentioned seem quite minor (especially if you think about open-source gaming) compared to the actual consequences of what happened: Dark Sun as a brand has assuredly been diminished by not having AoA out there, winning fans to the setting (and to the system; I only purchased 4E rulebooks when I heard Dark Sun, which I loved in 2E, was getting a 4E release. That's hundreds of bucks WotC got from me they would never have otherwise earned).

Anyway, again, thanks for the thoughtful post. 
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9 months ago  ::  Sep 17, 2012 - 12:55PM #16
JabbaVonHutt
Date Joined: Aug 17, 2007
Posts: 328
Thanks for the update Alpha but here is what drives me and maybe others absolutely nuts:


Sep 13, 2012 -- 5:12PM, Alphastream1 wrote:


If you read the editorial for the Dark Sun month of DDI, heard the mentions of the program in official podcasts, or have been to conventions where Wizards staff love wearing Ashes of Athas T-Shirts, you can see the the support that Wizards shows our campaign. Unfortunately, a developer might really dig the campaign, but they aren't in the team that deals with distribution concerns. So, while overall there is a lot of support for AoA, somehow we have this issue within WotC. The AoA admin team, Baldman Games, WotC Organized Play, we are all working on resolving this issue. It isn't simple, for various reasons.




So who is the team at WotC with the concerns? What are those concerns? At this point it just seems they are hiding behind the faceless WotC brand with nobody the fans can deal with because everyone else at WotC apparently loves AoA. Can we be getting anymore mixed signals from WotC?

How about someone from WotC who does like the concept take ownership of this issue on behalf of the fans?  

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8 months ago  ::  Sep 23, 2012 - 10:07PM #17
KBB
Date Joined: Mar 21, 2011
Posts: 2
I can definately sympatheize with this being a complex matter, but the lack of communication from WotC and Baldman is what has made this expereince frustrating from the standpoint of being exposed to some great content only for it to stop with very little explanation. Why do people need to be up in arms before we get any facts on the matter if there is alot of support from within WotC as well?
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8 months ago  ::  Oct 06, 2012 - 6:19PM #18
BRJN
Date Joined: Jun 7, 2001
Posts: 1,168
Alpha,

Thinking like Chancellor Palpatine:

Please work your contacts within WotC and get some people from Legal (or whatever section is being blamed for the hangup) to come visit you at Winter Fantasy.

This way they can see AoA in action and send favorable reports back to Headquarters.  Objective: break up the logjam.

Then (late in the weekend) WE can get our hands on them.
Life on Athas is tough, man...

 Wink

Best complements I have yet received:
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Making it up as I go along:
{BRJN}
     If I was writing the Tome of Lore, I would let Auppenser sleep. But I also would have him dream.
     In his dreaming he re-activates the innate powers of (some) mortal minds. Or his dreaming changes the nature of reality - currently very malleable thanks to Spellplague &c. Or whatever really cool flavor text and pseudo-science explanation people react positively to.
{Lord_Karsus}
You know, I like that better than the explanations for the Spellplague.

My plot device: http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/ … #489880509 (The reaction is the next post.)

Prepped ahead of time:
I started the thread "1001 Failed Interrogation Results"
{ADHadh}
These are all good and make sense!  I just can't come up with something that's not covered here and is not completely ridiculous.

My characters:
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Active Characters:
LFR Half-elf StarLock6     Gondolin Nightstar
AoA Dwarf Guardian Druid6     Narvik from House Wavir

Character A-building:
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"Truenamer" - speaks Words of Creation

Concepts I'm kicking around:
"Buggy" Wizard - insect flavor on everything
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8 months ago  ::  Oct 16, 2012 - 8:21AM #19
wemn
Date Joined: Jul 13, 2008
Posts: 98
Guess I'll be the first one to ask, what happened to the Baldman games site? I've been trying to check on any info about the modules for ashes of athas on their site and now it seems like the whole site is M.I.A.
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8 months ago  ::  Oct 16, 2012 - 8:47AM #20
JohnduBois
Date Joined: May 29, 2004
Posts: 956

Oct 16, 2012 -- 8:21AM, wemn wrote:

Guess I'll be the first one to ask, what happened to the Baldman games site? I've been trying to check on any info about the modules for ashes of athas on their site and now it seems like the whole site is M.I.A.



I'm getting to the site (www.baldmangames.com), but all the menu bar links other than forums seem to be broken. It's recently redesigned, so something was probably dropped somewhere.

EDIT: Baldman Games is telling me that they're getting pages repopulated as quickly as they can. FWIW, no updates reported recently on availability of adventures apart from Chapter 7 being available at Winter Fantasy 2013 in January and that chapter being the campaign's conclusion. 

John du Bois
Living Forgotten Realms Writing Director, Netheril story area

Follow me on The Twitter: @JohnduBois
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