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10 months ago ::
Sep 25, 2012 - 11:18PM
#71
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can a suboptimal character effective in 4e? The first question we have to ask ourselves what is defined as suboptimal? is it just a character with its stats spread out a bit or does it have a low to negetive modifier (say -1 to +1) for its primary stats? (why do that anyway?) if its just a character with its stats spread out a bit then yeah i would have to say that character can still be effective. If its stats are in the low positive to negetive range then that character is going to struggle, even with good rolls and smart playing by the player. guess what it boils down to is that its a bad idea to intentionaly cripple your character unless you like to struggle.
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10 months ago ::
Sep 26, 2012 - 12:55AM
#72
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Date Joined:
Nov 13, 2004
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can a suboptimal character effective in 4e? The first question we have to ask ourselves what is defined as suboptimal?
Well, if an 18-20 in the primary stat is 'Optimal,' a 14-17 would be 'Sub-Optimal.' Anything below that and I'm guessing you're doing an awful form of random stat generation, you're being dangerously experimental, you've never played the game before and/or didn't pay attention to the text when it repeatedly and explicitly tells you what your primary stat is.
4e D&D is not a "Tabletop MMO." It is not Massively Multiplayer, and is usually not played Online. Come up with better descriptions of your complaints, cuz this one means jack ****.
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9 months ago ::
Sep 27, 2012 - 10:02AM
#73
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can a suboptimal character effective in 4e? The first question we have to ask ourselves what is defined as suboptimal?
Well, if an 18-20 in the primary stat is 'Optimal,' a 14-17 would be 'Sub-Optimal.' Anything below that and I'm guessing you're doing an awful form of random stat generation, you're being dangerously experimental, you've never played the game before and/or didn't pay attention to the text when it repeatedly and explicitly tells you what your primary stat is.
I think a lot of this comes down to how you define "optimal". Some define optimal as anything meeting the baseline or better. Others define it only as only the very best you can have, and even others will define the very best you can have using conditional mods, while others prefer static, anytime mods.
In my mind, anything that can hit most monsters at the level they should be fighting with a rolled 10 or better should be reasonable (assuming a non-lazy class). I'd say that's really about the minimum level of optimization /required/ to play without being too much of a hinderance to the party when it comes to contributing. Is that optimal? Depends on your definition. Anything less then that is certainly sub-optimal. Can it be better? Certainly!
I think my own character is a good example of what I am trying to say. Many people (my DM, for one) think that he's highly optimized, and borderline overpowered with his +20 to hit and +27 to damage rolls (level 14 drow storm sorc). I don't like to miss, so I cranked up my modifiers to max out my chances to hit. I'm also inherently lazy: I don't want to track status effects, so I've avoided other accuracy boosters such as +1 when you hit with at will powers, etc. Essentially, my accuracy /could/ be better then it is, should I choose to track things, yet my DM considers me a munchkin, because I simply do not like missing, nor do I like to choose fluff based feats when there are combat additives still on the board to take.
If I posted my character on the CharOp forums, they'd be quick to point out those accuracy boosters I am missing (among other things I don't feel like tracking/taking advantage of), and also quick to point out how my sorcerer fails to meet the striker /baselines/ because of it. They would tell you my character is sub-optimal.
Which is it? min-maxxed, or sub-optimal? Likely somewhere in the middle. It's not gimp and useless, but it's not broken powerful either.
So in my mind, what it really comes down to is the math. At the end of the day, your average monster of X level, is going to require an attack stat of Y to hit it with a roll of 10 on your die. That's a 50% chance to hit. In my mind, that's the lowest level of optimization necessasy to play this game and not be a drag on your party. Honestly, that's not really asking for a lot.
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9 months ago ::
Sep 29, 2012 - 1:41AM
#74
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As far as definitions, I tend to use three:
- Optimal means something CharOp would approve.
- Effective means you have a minimum of 16 in your prime stat, and 12 in any secondaries (or otherwise able to do your job, like with the aforementioned LazyLords).
- Everything is else is crap, or another appropriate term. In the case of newbies I encourage them to get that 16 and explain why it is important, but let them suffer if they stubbornly refuse (like the player with 14 Int wizard who couldn't hit the broadside of a barn with a nuke; for some reason he thought 16 Dex was more useful to the character).
Only once have I ever made one of the latter, but I didn't intend to play him. I frequently listen to my unabridged The Hobbit audiobook when relaxing. After the seventh or so listen over the years, Beorn became my favorite character, then one day last year I was suddenly inspired to try and make a character who was a werebear with a pet bear. I ended up making him as a hybrid ranger/druid. To get around the stat issue, his only ranger attack is Fox's Cunning which lets him shift away after a melee attack and use a basic attack against whoever attacked him; his druid at-will is Savage Rend, a beast form power that can be used as a melee basic attack. Thus his stats mostly ignore his ranger half. The only other really glaring problem is that hybrid beast mastery inflicts a -1 penalty to the pet's attack rolls and defenses – and the bear's attack bonus isn't that great to start with. Roleplaying-wise, I was forced to skimp on the Charisma due to lack of points, which rather sucked considering how in-your-face Beorn is. (But having that shortage of points because you need a 16 in one stat to function is whole 'nother rant I'm not going to derail the thread with. 13s being fine are one of the reasons I prefer HackMaster 5e for the rare times I don't run GURPS.) But once again, that was a character I made only to see if I could, not with any intent to play him (although I certainly would have if he'd turned out playable), so he didn't need to be effective. Of course, now I could probably just make him as a sentinel or ranger by reflavoring an appropriate Hengeyokai, or making a totally new type. May have to try that...
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9 months ago ::
Sep 30, 2012 - 4:34AM
#75
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Date Joined:
Jul 17, 2003
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Of course, now I could probably just make him as a sentinel or ranger by reflavoring an appropriate Hengeyokai, or making a totally new type. May have to try that...
There's also a Werebear THEME now too. 
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9 months ago ::
Sep 30, 2012 - 12:55PM
#76
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Date Joined:
Aug 19, 2007
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It's a little bit suboptimal, but...
If you want to go straight druid for a wall of bears rather than hybrid ranger:
Start as a Sentinel Druid with the Werebear theme and then take the Call To The Wild feat and the Beastwalker Circle feat - Sentinel gets you a bear companion, CTTW loses one of your Daily powers to gain a use of Summon Nature's Ally, which is required by BC, which gives you Wild Shape and access to beast form powers.
Two feats is a fairly steep price, but you now have a bear companion, a summoned bear, and you can wild shape and say you're a bear.
With the Werebear theme, you get an encounter power to change into a bear beast form. And at 10th level all your powers are useable in the hybrid beast form the theme gives you.
Spoiler:
Show
I am the Magic Man.
(Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.)
I am the Lawnmower Man.
(I AM GOD HERE!)
I am the Skull God.
(Koo Koo Ka Choo)
There are reasons they call me Mad...
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9 months ago ::
Sep 30, 2012 - 8:57PM
#77
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Date Joined:
Apr 16, 2009
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It's a little bit suboptimal, but...
If you want to go straight druid for a wall of bears rather than hybrid ranger:
Start as a Sentinel Druid with the Werebear theme and then take the Call To The Wild feat and the Beastwalker Circle feat - Sentinel gets you a bear companion, CTTW loses one of your Daily powers to gain a use of Summon Nature's Ally, which is required by BC, which gives you Wild Shape and access to beast form powers.
Two feats is a fairly steep price, but you now have a bear companion, a summoned bear, and you can wild shape and say you're a bear.
With the Werebear theme, you get an encounter power to change into a bear beast form. And at 10th level all your powers are useable in the hybrid beast form the theme gives you.
Also multiclass to some Arcane class, take the Arcane Familiar feat, and choose "Oso de la Fez, former show bear" as your familiar (Dragon #376).
Be sure to worship The Traveler and be trained in Bluff before you get to level 11. Then pick the paragon path "Traveler's Harlequin" and use it to multiclass to Shaman. Choose to be a Bear Shaman (or pick any of the others, probably excluding Eagle, and refluff).
WARNING: there is quite a bit of inconsistency in the rules for the different varieties of "pets". Also they'll soak up a lot of time. You probably should not actually go for more than one without DM approval and with a way in mind to back off to only one if it seems advisable.
"The world does not work the way you have been taught it does. We are not real as such; we exist within The Story. Unfortunately for you, you have inherited a condition from your mother known as Primary Protagonist Syndrome, which means The Story is interested in you. It will find you, and if you are not ready for the narrative strands it will throw at you..." - from Footloose
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9 months ago ::
Oct 01, 2012 - 3:27AM
#78
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Date Joined:
Dec 12, 2011
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No, 4e is strongly about optimization. A character with weak stats and poor power/feat selections would have to be carried by her teammates. The character would not be effective in a 4e game because such a premium is put on hit rolls over every other aspect of the game.
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9 months ago ::
Oct 01, 2012 - 5:49AM
#79
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Date Joined:
Jul 17, 2003
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No, 4e is strongly about optimization.
To you. To others it may be about other things entirely (like, say, having FUN).
A character with weak stats and poor power/feat selections would have to be carried by her teammates. The character would not be effective in a 4e game because such a premium is put on hit rolls over every other aspect of the game.
The player vs. monster math is balanced around a Character having a 16 in their primary ability score, a +2 proficiency weapon and taking an expertise feat sometime before level 11.
A character with an 18 and a +3 proficiency weapon is only going to hit 10% more often than that and will do about 1 extra point of damage per hit. Not every character needs to be performing at this level in order to survive the game's math and the difference between it and a 16/+2 character will barely even be noticable in actual play (frankly, whether your dice are running hot or not that night will make a much bigger difference) and a 20/+3 with expertise at level 1 is complete overkill in terms of what is needed to survive and contribute to a party.
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9 months ago ::
Oct 01, 2012 - 7:20AM
#80
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No, 4e is strongly about optimization.
To you. To others it may be about other things entirely (like, say, having FUN).
A character with weak stats and poor power/feat selections would have to be carried by her teammates. The character would not be effective in a 4e game because such a premium is put on hit rolls over every other aspect of the game.
The player vs. monster math is balanced around a Character having a 16 in their primary ability score, a +2 proficiency weapon and taking an expertise feat sometime before level 11.
A character with an 18 and a +3 proficiency weapon is only going to hit 10% more often than that and will do about 1 extra point of damage per hit. Not every character needs to be performing at this level in order to survive the game's math and the difference between it and a 16/+2 character will barely even be noticable in actual play (frankly, whether your dice are running hot or not that night will make a much bigger difference) and a 20/+3 with expertise at level 1 is complete overkill in terms of what is needed to survive and contribute to a party.
This. Role playing and decent stats are not mutually exclusive. You don't have to max everything out to be /effective/. You have to apply a little common sense. A fighter with a 10 strength isn't going to work well. It shouldn't. A fighter with a 16 +2 strength and uses a +2 weapon is certainly not optimized, but will get the job done and be an effective, contributing party member.
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