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9 months ago ::
Sep 03, 2012 - 4:58PM
#41
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Date Joined:
Aug 31, 2008
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Again, I don't see "how many can he get there" as "what is the greatest number he can get there". "How many can he get there?" is pretty open.
How many candies do you want? Well, I know the maximum I can eat is 27...am I not allowed to say I want 12? Or 1?
Since the process to arrive at 2, 5, or 8 is consistent with the parameters of the problem, yes, they are right. Each of the given solutions is equally right, therefore each of their products are correct.
As for "one right answer to 1.3+1.4", the fact is there ARE conflicting procedures for when and what to round down. They may not be reflective of what YOU'VE been trained for, but they remain valid. Referring to something as the right answer means you're making a value judgement beyond the impartiality of the numbers themselves.
You can say 1.3+1.4 is 2.7, but if my significant digits don't include any decimals your answer is no longer acceptable. Doesn't make it wrong.
And my intention isn't to discuss game design, more like our perceptions of what is and is not a problem with the design, and the fact that we can each draw equally valid conclusions from the same body of material.
Fine, fine, fine, but this is something that you have to clearly indicate with the question. It doesn't matter "how you see it", it matters what the question is asking. Seeing as how you asked the question, you are free to define it as simply looking for all the possible numbers of watermelons that can be brought to the final destination (I assumed that because you talked about "all the different solutions").
The point is that not all questions will be open ended like that; some will have a single, best answer. Take your inclusion of sig figs for the simple math problem: that is something that would be known from the start, and so there is still a best answer.
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9 months ago ::
Sep 03, 2012 - 5:07PM
#42
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- Senior Volunteer Community Lead
- Sesquipedalian
Date Joined:
May 20, 2001
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The right answer of course is none, as watermellons don't exist in a desert world.
The problem isn't so much the math as it is people worried too much about the math not being perfect when the DM can change the equation at any time, for any reason.
Players having too easy a time fighting monsters? The DM is often advised to add hit points or more monsters to make the battles last longer than six real time seconds.
Are the players not happy with the amount of gold they're getting? DM can always add more to the pile.
That big attack from the bad guy comes up big. Going by the honest dice rolls, the entire party would be killed. The DM can fudge the number and say half the rolls missed, and the rest was enough damage to bring the rest of the party to just a few hit points. This lets the party one last shot at taking the bad guy down and saving the day.
The DM's "Best friend" from some editions allows +2 or -2 to any die roll for favorable or unfavorable circumstances. It is not a constant, nor is it required to be in play. But that +2 or - 2 can make a huge difference.
Sometimes players or even the DM forgets to add a bonus from somewhere. They don't go back and replay three weeks worth of games because someone suddenly remembers a bonus that would have been handy earlier. Because at the end of the day, the math does not matter.
Spoiler:
Show
Of the two approaches to hobby games today, one is best defined as the realism-simulation school and the other as the game school. AD&D is assuredly an adherent of the latter school. It does not stress any realism (in the author's opinon an absurd effort at best considering the topic!).
It does little to attempt to simulate anything either. (AD&D) is first and foremost a game for the fun and enjoyment of those who seek the use of imagination and creativity....
In all cases, however, the reader should understand that AD&D is designed to be an amusing and diverting pastime, something which an fill a few hours or consume endless days, as the participants desire, but in no case something to be taken too seriously.
For fun, excitement and captivating fantasy, AD&D is unsurpassed.As a realistic simulation of things from the realm of make-believe or even as a reflection of midieval or ancient warfare or culture or society, it can be deemed only a dismal failure. Readers who seek the later must search elsewhere. - Gary Gygax. 1e DMG.
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9 months ago ::
Sep 03, 2012 - 5:10PM
#43
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Date Joined:
Feb 25, 2010
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On the contrary, with the exception of substituting "desert" with "Athas" and "fair" with "Tyr", I've presented the scenario (which is a classic math riddle) exactly as it has been presented a number of times and places. And why is this particular problem so often presented? Not because of the difficulty of figuring out the "right" answer, or anyones interpretation of the question, but because it has multiple means of devising a solution and multiple correct answers.
If you're reading this there's a good chance you should be wearing a helmet, consequently I really can't bring myself to care about your opinion.
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9 months ago ::
Sep 03, 2012 - 5:17PM
#44
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Date Joined:
Feb 25, 2010
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The right answer of course is none, as watermellons don't exist in a desert world.
The problem isn't so much the math as it is people worried too much about the math not being perfect when the DM can change the equation at any time, for any reason.
Players having too easy a time fighting monsters? The DM is often advised to add hit points or more monsters to make the battles last longer than six real time seconds.
Are the players not happy with the amount of gold they're getting? DM can always add more to the pile.
That big attack from the bad guy comes up big. Going by the honest dice rolls, the entire party would be killed. The DM can fudge the number and say half the rolls missed, and the rest was enough damage to bring the rest of the party to just a few hit points. This lets the party one last shot at taking the bad guy down and saving the day.
The DM's "Best friend" from some editions allows +2 or -2 to any die roll for favorable or unfavorable circumstances. It is not a constant, nor is it required to be in play. But that +2 or - 2 can make a huge difference.
Sometimes players or even the DM forgets to add a bonus from somewhere. They don't go back and replay three weeks worth of games because someone suddenly remembers a bonus that would have been handy earlier. Because at the end of the day, the math does not matter.
I agree completely, but also disagree. I know the math doesn't matter, but at least half of the reason I play is to accumulate higher numbers.
In regards to flubbed rolls or forgotten bonuses altering the math of the system, I've got a lovely basic opaque black d20 that rolls hot. I recorded the results from series of 100 rolls with 20 or so d20s and it seems that one d20 has a probability of coming up 17 or 19 that's almost three times higher than the norm.
Any time I use that one d20 it completely skews all of the math theory that the system was designed on. Yet it's still a completely valid portion of the equation.
If you're reading this there's a good chance you should be wearing a helmet, consequently I really can't bring myself to care about your opinion.
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9 months ago ::
Sep 03, 2012 - 5:55PM
#45
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Date Joined:
Apr 12, 2004
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Well, like I said in my original complaint, you have to twist the wording to interpret it any other way. In English, when you ask somebody how many X can you Y, you mean (unless there is a really clear context otherwise), what is the most X you can Y.
The funny thing is that this is exactly the rules lawyery thing that some people do with RPG rules once they actually are written.
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9 months ago ::
Sep 03, 2012 - 5:58PM
#46
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Date Joined:
Feb 19, 2009
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"The funny thing is that this is exactly the rules lawyery thing that some people do with RPG rules once they actually are written"
Heh.
As someone who has written game rules, that is SO true.
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9 months ago ::
Sep 03, 2012 - 6:00PM
#47
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Date Joined:
Apr 12, 2004
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So the designers are incompetent? The first thing they should have done was nail down numbers. Everything else needs to wait until they get that done because it is the whole foundation on which the game is built. The "feel" of the game (as a ruleset not at the table of course) is in large part designated by the math and how the numbers fit together. If the numbers don't work the whole playtest thing becomes an exercise in futility.
I think working out the numbers is a crazy first step. What if the mechanics that make those numbers are rejected? The the whole house comes downs. Rather put out ideas on how different mechanics could play and get acceptance on those things first. Then fit them to the numbers.
You need numbers to make mechanics though. If I decide to make a Vancian wizard, I need to know how many spells he should get and what their baseline effect should be.
And the baseline numbers don't need to assume any mechanics at all. You just say: we expect average dpr to be X per level, and monster hp to be Y per level. Attack bonus will scale something like this, and AC something like that. Once you have that base line, then you have something concrete to design the mechanics around.
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9 months ago ::
Sep 03, 2012 - 8:33PM
#48
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Ok, first, I'm going to guess English isn't your first language. Because asking "How many watermelons can you get to Tyr?" has a very specific English meaning. I'm guessing "can" has more varied meanings in other languages, but in English, that question means "How many watermelons [are you capable of] getting to Tyr." It doesn't mean "how many do you feel like getting to Tyr" or "how many did you get to Tyr when you tried it?" If it's a question of "can," then it's a question of capability.
Now, if you must eat a watermelon each mile--as in, you cannot walk a mile without eating one (as opposed to simply always eating one if you have at least one with you as your question implied)--then the correct answer to "How many watermelons can you get to Tyr?" is "8."
That said, I think this problem actually exemplifies what you're saying and why I disagree with it quite nicely. You believe there are multiple correct answers, but there is actually only one.
Did you know that there is no gray? Like, seriously, gray does not exist--it's just black and white bunched together in different amounts. We see gray because it's a short cut for our minds, so we don't have to mentally count every little instance of black and white.
So one person could look at a particular gray, and say, "I think that looks more white." And another person can look at the same gray and say, "I think that looks more black." And while we can't actually know which one is correct for sure, (assuming there is not an equal amount of both black and white) one of those people is correct while the other is wrong.
Being able to determine the correct answer is not required for there to be a correct answer.
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9 months ago ::
Sep 03, 2012 - 8:37PM
#49
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Date Joined:
Jan 21, 2003
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Well, like I said in my original complaint, you have to twist the wording to interpret it any other way. In English, when you ask somebody how many X can you Y, you mean (unless there is a really clear context otherwise), what is the most X you can Y.
The funny thing is that this is exactly the rules lawyery thing that some people do with RPG rules once they actually are written.
Honestly i find it real funny that despite his post...and him drawing the conclusion in the wrong way.
His post still kinna gets around to what he was meaning..through how people viewed it in this thread alone.
As he was saying we might not have all the info needed..and sometimes there might be more than one right answer based on the problem.
In this case he said he knew of 3 answers to it. Oddly he was right in being wrong.
How many ways to understand the question did we see? Some people found a 'loophole', where it didn't say he had to eat a watermelon..he just would if he had one. So created an optimal answer based on that.
Others assumes any number was ok..as long as it could be shown mathmatically.
finally some assumes the answer should be the most optimal one, based on the wording.
To a degree I think his point is still made....there might be more than one right way based on peoples whims. And we still don't have all of the info needed yet to really draw a correct conclusion.
Of course this is in part because they are still working on it..and part of this testing is for us to help wizards find the needed info that should be given....
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9 months ago ::
Sep 03, 2012 - 8:44PM
#50
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Date Joined:
Apr 12, 2008
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Yeah, I'm gonna have to houserule that he has an Everfull Cart of Watermelons and that he can eat however many he wants whenever he wants and still have a cart full when he gets to Tyr. Seeing that watermelons are not likely to be found in Athas in the first place, this man is obviously a melon-mancer and his motives should not be questioned lest he call down the Wrath of Gallagher.
In fond memory of Mark "Wrecan" Monack.
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