I'd consider 3E-4E to be pretty long and featured. In popular media, the concept/trope of a martial artist throwing blows faster than the eye can follow is also quite prolific.
Whoah, what the heck? Why is the Monk as good with weapons as a Fighter? No other class gets that weapon attack bonus progression. The Monk has never been that good with weapons. I think using the Rogue weapon bonus progression makes way more sense. Or even just go the way of the Dragon Sorcerer and give an unscaling +3.
Er, wait, what? Two crazy problems just in the chart? Why in the world does the Monk get a better Save DC progression than the Wizard/Warlock? Why should Monks get an extra +1 to their DCs?
Unarmed strikes are equivalent to two-handed finesse weapons? Huh? I'd be perfectly fine with 1d6--and even letting the damage scale a little bit with more Monk levels--but it's silly to me that the monk's hands begin as better weapons than actual weapons.
Ki Agility--there are no Reflex saves. Do you mean Dexterity saves? The actual AC granted looks fine, but the calculation is really awkward. I think I'd prefer just a flat AC bonus that scales with level--and I don't necessarily even think it needs to be limited by Wisdom. It just needs to keep pace with Light Armor. That would also solve the problem of Monks being the class to be if you have a really high point buy or rolled really well or something such that you have a really high Dex and Wis.
Flurry of Blows--First, why does it need to be with Finesse weapons? Why even give the monk basic weapon proficiency if that's the case? I'm not saying one should be able to flurry with greataxes or anything, just questioning the decision to give monks a proficiency they might as well never use.
I also really dislike the -4 to hit thing. That's totally against the design of Next. There are no penalties (or bonuses) like that floating around anymore. Advantage/Disadvantage is the name of the game. Flurry of blows ought to be making two attacks, each with Disadvantage to fit in.
I also think you'd be better off just saying, "monks can't multi-class" somewhere in the beginning, rather than specifying with each specific ability that it doesn't work if you multi-class more than you find desirable.
Ki Pool/Disciplines: Aah! Did you even try to balance this? I'm starting to think that you didn't, thanks to the as good as fighter attack progression, better than weapons punches, better than wizard's save progression, and now, this more (and scaling ever higher!) encounter powers than the Warlock thing.
The Warlock gets only two favors between short rests and this never increases. Literally, each fight, they can do two special things that aren't Eldritch blasting. Why does the Monk get to do 3 things each fight to start, never mind the fact that he can eventually do 4?
There's no such thing as a "free action" in Next. The proper verbiage is now something like, "you can, as part of your action, do X."
While it may seem obvious, you really ought to define the various entries in your Discipline listing such as "trigger."
Burst of Speed: the actual movement and OA thing are irrelevant to me. I'm concerned, however, that three times per fight, you can just declare that you have advantage on an attack and deal extra damage with it? Granted, it's not as much extra damage as say, combat superiority which is always on, but advantage nearly assures a hit. That's especially deadly when connected to Flurry of Blows (your version or mine, really). And besides, where did this "monks are accurate," thing come from? In my mind, monks are the super innacurate guys that make up for it with lots and lots and lots of attacks, not these precision killers you're turning them into.
Prescient Dodge: this ability, attainable at level 1 and usable 3+ times per encounter, not only duplicates, but actually improves upon, a boon ability that the Warlock gets at level 2. The difference? The warlock must spend a reaction to trigger it, it only works on attacks, not saves, too, and the Warlock only ever has two boons to use on powers like this.
Mind Over Body: Ok, seriously? 3+ times per fight, the Monk can now also do what the Rogue can only do twice per day? Really? Are you really going to make the argument that Rogues being able to get advantage on non physical checks somehow balances this vast gap in frequency?
Inner Eye: are you kidding me? Am I being trolled? Is this write up serious, or is it just a strange love letter to the concept of the Monk class?
Fade to Black: The Warlock can become Ethereal twice per encounter, so this is approaching fair. However, doing so for the Warlock takes an action, rather than being essentially free from the action economy as this more powerful than Ethereal ability is for the Monk. So, yeah, ultimately, still no good.
Stunning Fist--I'm not sure you really read the Paralyzed condition in the packet. "The creature cannot move physically, control its limbs, or speak. It drops whatever it’s holding and falls prone. The creature’s mental faculties are not affected." You really imagine the Monk punching someone and turning their body into floppy jelly for a turn? Why didn't you just go for the Stunned condition instead? I mean, it's even called "Stunning Fist," so it's in the name.
Blurred Fist--Separating this out from the fact that I dislike the general way Flurry of Blows and these ki powers work (and how such things do not even fit into the way Next is designed), this isn't really bad. It's the first one!
Dragon Fist--No other knockback power deals damage. Why does this one? Why did you not just follow precedent?
Diamond Fist and Swift Reaction are fine, again, given the caveats for Blurred Fist above.
Ki Blast--The calculation for how much Ki you can spend is again awkward, and the power is not structured the way spells are in Next. First, they removed stat mods from spell damage--it should instead be 2d8+4 or 3d8 or something. Additionally, this power, which can be used every encounter at level 1 and twice per encounter at level 4, deals more average damage than Burning Hands, deals two types of damage instead of just one, and has the additional effect of knocking them prone and pushing them back.
Monk Techniques--There'smore!? This class gets more over the course of 5 levels than every other class combined.
First, "hitting by X or more" is not a thing in D&D Next, nor is it a thing in any previous edition. Hitting is binary and always has been: hit or miss (ok, trinary--hit, miss, or crit--but still, you get my point). Further, since your version of the Monk is a paragon of accuracy, these abilities are silly unfair.
Swift Disarm is annoying to me because it does not handle Disarm in any way close to how I'd do it. I mean, why does AC even have anything to do with it? What armor I'm wearing is the most significant aspect of determining whether or not you can kick my sword out of my hands? How strong a grip I have, how many hands I have on this sword, and my own skill in fighting are irrelevant? Just my armor and ability to dodge matters?
Circle Kick--so, you may not have intended it this way, but this ability allows me to Flurry of Blows and turn one of my two attacks into an attack at -4 against every enemy in reach. Your wording does not stack the penalties. If that is not intentional, please re-evaluate this technique. If it is intentional, what are you thinking? As I said before, -4 isn't common practice, it should be disadvantage, and it shouldn't combine with Flurry, nor should it knock prone, too.
Meteor Toss--"You can choose to deal no damage with this attack in order to deal massively more damage than you'd normally be capable of against two creatures at once while simultaneously forcing a hell of a lot of movement and knocking someone prone." Are you familiar with the playtest packets that have been released? Do you have no concept of the power levels present in them?
Counterstrike, Deflect Projectiles--I don't even have the energy to tell you all the things wrong with the power level of these abilities.
Practised (sic) Dodge--This is fine, but again, that calculation is awkward.
Darting Strike--This is effectively identical to the Fighter maneuver Shift...except that the Monk can do it on every attack forever at no cost while the Fighter needs to spend an Expertise die.
Tumble--So, basically, the monk ignores all Opportunity Attacks all the time forever? <_<
Preternatural Evasion--you ignore all miss effects and get both (the Next versions of) Evasion and Mettle? Just, automatically at level 2? No, just no.
Ki Speed--This is fine, speed is nearly irrelevant anyway.
Ultimate Verdict: No! Please re-read the packet that has already been released and rewrite this class into something that at least pretends to be balanced. As is, the monk fights better than a fighter, has more encounter powers than the warlock, blasts and inflicts conditions better than any spell caster, and has dozens of moves that do not fit the design style of Next at all.
First off, while there's a lot of good critique Storyteller, much of the criticism seems to concern itself with comparing similar elements/effects without taking into account an overall view.
The fact that this is a rough sketch/outline should also be kept in mind. It is not a 'finished product'. I have not formally gone over the math and made detailed cross comparisons as of yet, but I will when I find more time. That said, I am left to wonder at your thoroughly caustic and snippish tone.
This is what I've had the time to address so far. I'll get around to the rest later.
Monk Attack Bonus: I've always seen the monk as a highly skilled and disciplined combatant. Why shouldn't he be as talented with the subset of weapon's he's practised in, including his fists, as the Fighter? 3.5 precedence is a terrible example, where the Monk was an absolute joke.
Ki DC Progression: It's better because it's keyed to a secondary stat rather than a primary which will likely debut at a +2.
Ki Agility: Yes, Dexterity saves were meant obviously. I don't mind the idea of AC that scales simply with level rather than Wis, though I dislike it being less dynamic.
Flurry of Blows: I'd considered Disadvantage; it was actually featured in my first draft of the feature, but the idea of making 4-6 d20 rolls pretty much every round at a minimum to attack makes me cringe.
On Unarmed Strikes at 1d8 damage:
DPR, Fighter vs Monk vs Warlock vs Rogue.
Assumptions: 13 AC target, the Fighter uses a 1d8 weapon with level appropriate Expertise dice, the Monk uses Flurry of Blows. Everyone has an +4 ability mod, and the same attack bonus +3/+4:
Rogue (Katana/Long Bow + Sneak Attack assumed without advantage via Thug; you can use a weaker weapon and it wont matter too much.): Level 1: (4.5 + 3.5*2+4)*.65+(8 + 12 +4)*.05 = 11.275 damage Level 3: (4.5 + 3.5*4+4)*.65+(8 + 24 +4)*.05= 16.425 damage Level 5: (4.5 + 3.5*6+4)*.70+(8 + 36 +4)*.05 = 23.05 damage
Don't see the 1d8 being a huge problem.
Ki Discipline: Fair enough on most.
Burst of Speed: It's less about being accurate, more about surprise at/inability to defend against some guy bum rushing at you at incredible speeds. I don't mind dropping the bonus damage.
Dragon Fist: Why should a knockback power not deal damage? So far as precedent goes there's Thunderwave (a mediocre spell btw)?
Ki Blast: By the RAW, they did not remove spell modifiers; the class is in part balanced around this assumption. Burning Hands as an underpowered L1 is a bad comparison, but assuming a +4 mod applies to it, a saving throw bonus of +0, an AC of 13, and accounting for the partial miss damage, it deals 3.15 more damage on average:
That said, vis a vis the likes of Eldritch Blast's at-will 3d6-4d6+4, I don't see a huge problem, but I will consider fixes/nerfs.
Monk Techniques: Loving the snipish exaggeration. That said, bonuses/penalties for succeeding/failing by some increment has been around in both 4e and 3.5, and it's an element I personally like. No reason it can't debut in Next.
Swift Disarm: Agreed. This was kind of sketchy and I wasn't satisfied with it. Revised it to set a Strength/Dexterity DC = to the attack roll.
Circle Kick: Clarified that the penalties that apply to the triggering attack also apply to the circle kick attacks.
Meteor Toss: What on earth are you talking about? You deal 1d6, maybe 2d6 damage with this + prone if you plan to just flat out throw the target on the ground, or into an adjacent wall. At most, it'll be 3d6. Post hit rate modifiers, you're better off using a Flurry of Blows to deal damage.
Deflect Projectiles: Assuming the attacker has a +2 attack bonus (averaged roll of 13), and you have a +4 bonus to your Dexterity saving throw, you have about a 60% chance of success, and a 35% chance of deflecting. That's pretty powerful admittedly. This is easy enough to balance with a penalty to the saving throw/bonus to the DC however.
Darting Strike--Fair enough; I'll look into a better solution for this one.
Counterstrike: 65% chance of triggering assuming a +2 attack bonus vs an AC of 16.
(((4.5+4)*0.8125+(8+4)*0.0975)*2)*.65 = +10.49 counterstrike damage / turn. Yeah, pretty steep. Again, easily fixable by adjusting the thresholds. I'll tinker around with the math later.
Tumble: Not entirely sure what to do with this. Kicking around some ideas, but I'd like to keep rolling to a minimum.
Preternatural Evasion: In practice how powerful is this? The answer is not much at all. I don't see it being a problem.
Lastly, so far as utterly broken things go, this Monk still has nothing on encounter breaking Cause Fear/Web spamming Sorcs; just saying.
So... because you dislike cherry-picking, everyone else must be compelled to hate it also, huh?
Yeah, pretty much. I consider myself a staunch optimizer, but the super twink cherry picker exploitive dip composites that span 4+ classes with far less than 25% of its total levels invested in the majority makes my stomach turn with their nigh unjustifiable silliness.
WotC can do what they like with the restriction, but I'm not changing it. I think it's absolutely ridiculous and unfair that someone is able to dip a couple of levels and cherry pick some of the most powerful elements without any kind of substantive investment.
How does fairness come into it?
And any multiclass build is potentially a single concept being put together with parts from multiple classes, rather than a mix of concepts, so what possible "justification" could be needed?
Here was me honestly thinking it would be a concept sketch you did >.<
This looks to be a very well done class, kudos for its design but the flurry of blows power looks like it will become OP even with the -4. Maybe -2 with no ability modifier to the damage rolls?
Was thinking of potentially increasing the penalty to -5.
Thanks for the feedback!
Other concerns aside, -2 with decreased damage is a better option. Make the penalty -5, and it's a trap option.
Anyway, most of the level one benefits don't need to be level one. Flurry of blows needs to do part of what's listed at level one. Make it comperable to TWF, at best, and improve over levels. Maybe have it do weapon damage only. That would put them on par with warlocks, I think.
unarmed working like finesse weapons for the monk is powerful enough that it, and a reduced flurry of blows, are a great lvl one character.
As long as the monk gets most of that within the first 5 levels, and is effective with simple weapons or unarmed from level one, the monk is working correctly.
Maybe keep ki disciplines and ki pool, so long as you only get one or two at first level.
High dex will mean good defense at level one, but agility shouldn't wait any longer than level 3.
I think that would put the monk roughly on par with the warlock. (assuming fixed math, not getting more "powers" per combat that are just as useful as the warlock, etc)
"Orders" could be a scheme like feature, which give different benefits to flurry as the monk levels, etc.
by the way, even if you take the anti dipper stance on mc rules, you've gone way overboard with the number of features that simply don't function is the monk isn't a character's primary class. If a character is halving levels between monk and something else, it will have it's monk abilities only half of the time. At that point, just ban multiclassing at your table, or make a rule that monks can't multiclass, or somesuch, but what you've got there is just... unusably extreme.
More sex and gender equality and racial equality shouldn't even be an argument--it should simply be an assumption for any RPG that wants to stay relevant in the 21st century.
Flurry of Blows needs to change. The -4 mechanic won't work. Decrease the damage die of the unarmed attack by 1 step (d6->d4) while doing flurry. Or half like Two Weapon Fighting. Somehow you can't modify accuracy, but you have to modify the damage.
And any multiclass build is potentially a single concept being put together with parts from multiple classes, rather than a mix of concepts, so what possible "justification" could be needed?
The notion of 'fairness' is obviously a subjective one to some extent, but do you really think it's right that a player can swap between countless different classes, managing to poach some of the best features of each class that are necessarily frontloaded? I sure as hell don't. It's not going to happen.
And I've heard your second argument before; I don't buy it at all. When someone cherrypicks and makes a dip composite character, it's not about a unified concept. In reality, the narrative/concept usually follows the build, and is shoehorned to fit it, not vice versa.
Other concerns aside, -2 with decreased damage is a better option. Make the penalty -5, and it's a trap option.
Anyway, most of the level one benefits don't need to be level one. Flurry of blows needs to do part of what's listed at level one. Make it comperable to TWF, at best, and improve over levels. Maybe have it do weapon damage only. That would put them on par with warlocks, I think.
unarmed working like finesse weapons for the monk is powerful enough that it, and a reduced flurry of blows, are a great lvl one character.
DPR calcs disagree. They struggle to be at parity with Warlocks even with the current form of FoB, and it's pure melee besides.
Mathematically there is no reason to worsen FoB.
As long as the monk gets most of that within the first 5 levels, and is effective with simple weapons or unarmed from level one, the monk is working correctly.
If the Monk gets most of an inferior DPR, and nothing else then he is outshined.
Maybe keep ki disciplines and ki pool, so long as you only get one or two at first level.
High dex will mean good defense at level one, but agility shouldn't wait any longer than level 3.
I think that would put the monk roughly on par with the warlock. (assuming fixed math, not getting more "powers" per combat that are just as useful as the warlock, etc)
Ki Disciplines are limited to two presently at first level.
I don't like the idea of moving Ki Agility; moving it to 3 doesn't deter dippers much, and causes early monks to suffer subpar AC vis a vis other Dex classes, given the lack of armour.
While I'm looking at ways to improve the Ki Pool concept, it as Boons 2.0 is something to be avoided. Homogenity is boring.
by the way, even if you take the anti dipper stance on mc rules, you've gone way overboard with the number of features that simply don't function is the monk isn't a character's primary class. If a character is halving levels between monk and something else, it will have it's monk abilities only half of the time. At that point, just ban multiclassing at your table, or make a rule that monks can't multiclass, or somesuch, but what you've got there is just... unusably extreme.
Granted, half and halfers can get punished if they're oscillating between two classes. I could loosen it to something like say 40% rounded down and/or reduce the number of features affected, but I probably won't go beyond that.
Again, concerning FoB + 1d8 Unarmed Strike being 'OP':
DPR, Fighter vs Monk vs Warlock vs Rogue.
Assumptions: 13 AC target, the Fighter uses a 1d8 weapon with level appropriate Expertise dice, the Monk uses Flurry of Blows. Everyone has an +4 ability mod, and the same attack bonus +3/+4:
The fact that this is a rough sketch/outline should also be kept in mind. It is not a 'finished product'. I have not formally gone over the math and made detailed cross comparisons as of yet, but I will when I find more time. That said, I am left to wonder at your thoroughly caustic and snippish tone.
Monk Attack Bonus: I've always seen the monk as a highly skilled and disciplined combatant. Why shouldn't he be as talented with the subset of weapon's he's practised in, including his fists, as the Fighter? 3.5 precedence is a terrible example, where the Monk was an absolute joke.
The Monk was a joke due to MAD, not attack bonuses. Flurry of Blows worked quite well on its own. Further, Fighters absolutely should be the best fighters in the game. I am really very opposed to the idea of any class being as good without being at least some sort of hybrid Fighter (like a Ranger or Paladin).
Flurry of Blows: I'd considered Disadvantage; it was actually featured in my first draft of the feature, but the idea of making 4-6 d20 rolls pretty much every round at a minimum to attack makes me cringe.
I don't think a -4 fits the design goals of Next, though--you should probably come up with some other way for Flurry of Blows to work.
Assumptions: 13 AC target, the Fighter uses a 1d8 weapon with level appropriate Expertise dice, the Monk uses Flurry of Blows. Everyone has an +4 ability mod, and the same attack bonus +3/+4:
I'm not concerned about DPR calculations, especially becuase I don't believe the Monk should be even close to the Fighter or Rogue in DPR. I'm concerned about the simple fact that a level 1 monk's hands are better weapons than any other one-handed finesse weapon.
Warlock (Eldritch Blast + ability modifier; yes, some argue that ability mods don't apply. I balanced on the assumption that they did given the RAW):
It is absolutely not RAW. Unquestionably, spells do not add ability mods to damage anymore--it was a deliberate and obvious change between packet 1 and 2. The fact that they failed to update a single section of the How To Play document should not be taken to mean all the changes they made to spells are now moot.
Dragon Fist: Why should a knockback power not deal damage? So far as precedent goes there's Thunderwave (a mediocre spell btw)?
Thunderwave, Baleful Utterance, and the Fighter Knockback power. Knockback doesn't deal damage in Next because for whatever reason, the devs decided it doesn't. I'm not saying that no GM is going to have it deal damage, I'm just saying it probably shouldn't be codified.
Ki Blast: By the RAW, they did not remove spell modifiers; the class is in part balanced around this assumption.
That explains a lot about the excessive power of some of these things. However, they absolutely did remove stat modifiers to spell damage, so, yeah, fix that.
Burning Hands as an underpowered L1 is a bad comparison
Ok, again, the +4 damage does not apply, but Burning Hands is absolutely not underpowered. It is nearly guaranteed to kill every level 1 or 2 (non-elite) enemy in the bestiary, and is capable of killing more than half of the total enemies in the packet (not to mention every level 1 PC and most level 2 PCs--at least the ones that don't take Survivor).
That said, bonuses/penalties for succeeding/failing by some increment has been around in both 4e and 3.5, and it's an element I personally like. No reason it can't debut in Next.
Now I'm interested--where was this in 3rd and 4e? Because I certainly don't remember it.
Meteor Toss: What on earth are you talking about? You deal 1d6, maybe 2d6 damage with this + prone if you plan to just flat out throw the target on the ground, or into an adjacent wall. At most, it'll be 3d6. Post hit rate modifiers, you're better off using a Flurry of Blows to deal damage.
Hmm...I recall it reading "by every 2" not "every 5" last night when I read this. Objection withdrawn.
Lastly, so far as utterly broken things go, this Monk still has nothing on encounter breaking Cause Fear/Web spamming Sorcs; just saying.
I have had arguments before with people about the supposed brokenness of Cause Fear--it's not really that amazing. You are right about Web being unfair, for sure, but the thing is, you should not be trying to build this class to balance against the most broken and unfair thing in the packet.
Monk As a Joke: MAD was a big problem yes, but its class features weren't especially great either, nor was its support, or damage capabilities, even if you had all the ability scores you needed.
Fighter Melee Supremacy: Disagree. While the Fighter should be the best in some melee capacities, but the Monk should be able to surpass it in others.
Ki DC Progression: It should be higher to compensate for the lower bonus. The DC is intended to be on par with Wizards and Warlocks that get to apply their primary ability mod to the DC.
DPR: I completely disagree. The monk should be competitive with the Fighter's damage, or only somewhat less powerful. What's the point of the Monk if it can't have DPR even half way competitive with other front liners? Even with the existing DPR calcs, the Fighter has an advantage early on if it uses a two-hander. Further even if we assume ability mods don't apply to Eldritch Blast, Warlock DPR comes to surpass the Monk's.
I could only get behind markedly inferior DPR if the Monk's other options somehow make up for it. Even then I despise the notion of it as an impotent damage dealer.
On Ability Mod Damage Not Applying: It is RAW. It may not be RAI, but it's RAW. I didn't see the first playtest packet so I can't judge 'intent' based on prior content.
Burning Hands: It's an underpowered spell; mediocre at best. What's better? Grease, Cause Fear, Shield, Thunderwave (especially with prep; Ball Bearings/Caltrops/Hunting Traps put in place. If the forced move is interpretted as provoking then it's broken). To be fair though, L1 spells are either worthless or overpowered as a rule.
Exceptional Success/Failure: Off the top of my head, just check out 4e Athletics/Acrobatics. Or trap disarming in 3.5 and 4e. When you fail by some spectacular amount, bad things happen. Many rituals in 4e tended to reward the higher you rolled.
Circle Kick: I've seen Monk as the AoE meleer/ultimate multiattacker as per 4e and (kind of sort of) 3.5. Low accuracy multiattacks are his niche IMO.
Preternatural Evasion: The fact that partial effects are neither especially common, or powerful really tempers the practical power of this. I've never been impressed with these 'miss mitigators' for that reason.
Cause Fear and the Sorc: How is Cause Fear _not_ broken for an L1 spell? It effectively removes combatants from battle en masse and allows you to pick them off piecemeal. Even if your opponents are 'smart' enough to attack their allies to end the effect, they burn an action to have simply have a chance of doing so, dealing damage to them on a success in a lose/lose situation.
On several occasions, a cast or two of CF effectively won the encounter. It puts every other L1 spell to shame.
Granted, you shouldn't balance around obviously broken stuff, but Sorcerer makes my Monk look like nothing.
I would rather see a combination of styles (specializations) that bring out the flavor of kung-fu, karate, etc. and the core monk would focus on what is common accross all martials arts, like kicking, punching, dodging and throwing. A good start would be to look at the AD&D Oriental Adventures martial art style table. Monk muti-attack would just follow the 5E system, versus needing flurry of blows.
Where are the options to do my bar room brawler, wrestler, and boxer? This is very eastern monk flavored, the quick agile unarmed/unarmored fighter and not enough mechanics fit other styles of unarmed/unarmored fighting, something I think needs to happen.
