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9 months ago ::
Sep 01, 2012 - 6:45AM
#1
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Date Joined:
Sep 25, 2009
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Medium armor is the best at high levels, and the worst at low levels. This can and should be easily fixed.
Take a look at the armor tables in the playtest packet and run the numbers. Let's assume light armor wearers have at least a +3 dex to begin with and a +5 by the time they pick up Mithral (lets face it, they are all going to build DEX at every opportunity), and that medium armor wearers will have at least a +1 dex to start and a +2 by the time they pick up Dragon Scale (again a conservative assumption).
Light armor:
Average at 1 = 11+3 = 14
Max at 1 = 11+4 = 15
Medium armor:
Average at 1 = 13+1 = 14
Max at 1 = 13+2 = 15
Heavy Armor:
Everybody has 14
Ok, that works out more or less OK. Heavy armor wearers aren't locked into building DEX, so the fact that they're a tad behind is ok. Medium armor wearers get a bit of an advantage though in that it's a lot easier to achieve that 15 (a starting +4 DEX requires you play a human with the big bump in DEX and a class bump in DEX, a +2 just requires you make it your second best stat). But then take a look at high levels
Light armor: 13+5=18
Medium armor: 15+2=17
Heavy armor: 18
See the problem? Medium armor is the best at low levels, but the worst at high levels. Should we be encouraging people to swap armor types halfway through a campaign? Shouldn't we try to make armor types equally good at all levels, at least for those spending the resources to get the most out of it? Even if we want divergence for some reason, is there any reason it should be medium armor that starts off best and ends up worst?
Solution: Reduce studded leather's base AC to 12 (it was too much better than leather anyway), and increase dragon scale's max DEX to 3. Then everybody has a max AC of 14 to start (except human rogues/light-weapon fighters, and that's enough of a corner case for me not to worry about it). Everybody has an AC of 18 at the end. Medium armor wearers need to build more DEX than heavy armor wearers but less than light armor wearers. Everything works out right. You may want to then add a 75gp medium armor with a base of 13 to keep up with the other two in the mid-heroic range: maybe chain shirt.
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9 months ago ::
Sep 01, 2012 - 6:53AM
#2
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Date Joined:
Apr 12, 2004
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I think they tried to compensate at the high end by having dragonscale grant an elemental immunity. That's not at all a bad thing.
Also, though, I think you're discounting the fact that the medium armor guy hasn't had to invest anything to get that 17. The light armor wearer needs to pump his Dex up to 20, while the heavy armor wearer is slow, can't stealth, and anyway needed proficiency to get it.
My own preference would be to put a +3 max dex cap on shields. In part that's because it seems weird to think of a super-dex based character relying on a shield, but it also helps fix the problem you're pointing to. With a shield, they would top out at 18/18/19, which seems reasonable to me.
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9 months ago ::
Sep 01, 2012 - 6:55AM
#3
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Date Joined:
Jun 22, 2012
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personally i am against the highest heavy armour having the same value as the best ac from light armour.
afterall, there is no better defense than not getting hit
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9 months ago ::
Sep 01, 2012 - 7:08AM
#4
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Yeah, I really dislike the new armor system. I hate that the de facto best AC comes from Heavy Armor. And Medium Armor makes Dexterity a crap stat--you only ever need 14 Dex to have the best AC without a Stealth/Speed penalty (at least until you get into the realm of 20 Dex, which, so far, can't happen until level 8 at least.
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9 months ago ::
Sep 01, 2012 - 7:34AM
#5
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Date Joined:
May 24, 2012
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Medium armor needs to be removed.
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9 months ago ::
Sep 01, 2012 - 7:53AM
#6
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Date Joined:
Aug 24, 2010
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Yeah, I really dislike the new armor system. I hate that the de facto best AC comes from Heavy Armor. And Medium Armor makes Dexterity a crap stat--you only ever need 14 Dex to have the best AC without a Stealth/Speed penalty (at least until you get into the realm of 20 Dex, which, so far, can't happen until level 8 at least.
But dex is usefull for other things, such as ranged attacks and stealth. Dex should not be a superstat that every class needs to survive. The fact that heavy armour gives you the best AC seems logical; it is pricey and causes you to lose out on mobility. Also, realistically, unless you are super humanly quick, how will a person in leather compare in defense to somebody in full plate?
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9 months ago ::
Sep 01, 2012 - 8:05AM
#7
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Date Joined:
Jun 22, 2012
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Yeah, I really dislike the new armor system. I hate that the de facto best AC comes from Heavy Armor. And Medium Armor makes Dexterity a crap stat--you only ever need 14 Dex to have the best AC without a Stealth/Speed penalty (at least until you get into the realm of 20 Dex, which, so far, can't happen until level 8 at least.
But dex is usefull for other things, such as ranged attacks and stealth. Dex should not be a superstat that every class needs to survive. The fact that heavy armour gives you the best AC seems logical; it is pricey and causes you to lose out on mobility. Also, realistically, unless you are super humanly quick, how will a person in leather compare in defense to somebody in full plate?
as i said above, the best defense is not getting hit
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9 months ago ::
Sep 01, 2012 - 8:07AM
#8
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Date Joined:
Sep 25, 2009
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I'll admit I hadn't noticed that dragonscale granted an elemental immunity. But I'd still rather see it on par with light and heavy but grant light and heavy their own cool add-on - immunity to criticals, DR, something like that. Elemental immunity is really useful when you're fighting something that does elemental damage, but 9 fights out of 10 you've got the wrong element if there's any element being thrown around at all. And even in the one fight where you're immune to fire and your fighting fire elementals, it's kind of a bore to just be invincible. I'd sooner grab the +1 all the time over the occassionally useful but boring.
As to disadvantage on stealth and slower movement: 1) I've played a lot of D&D, and have almost never found myself wishing my move speed was 30' instead of 25' (or been glad that it was). It just doesn't come up that often IME. 2) you were going to be pretty bad at stealth anyway. 3) you get compensated by the fact that you don't have to build DEX. This is why I suggested dragon scale have a max dex of 3, instead of a base of 16: you have to invest something into dex to get an AC equal to the heavy armor guy.
The light armor guy has to invest more in DEX than the medium armor guy, yes, BUT THIS IS NOT A DOWNSIDE FOR HIM. You don't wear light unless you're a dex based character. You were going to build DEX to the max anyway to boost your attack with finesse and ranged weapons and to improve all the DEX skills you probably want to be good at with that character. The medium armor wearer could have left his DEX at 10, put on heavy armor, and built CON and gotten loads of extra HP. The light armor wearer could put on medium, but he'd still have to build DEX, so he shouldn't have to give up AC for the privilege. It seems to me that the decision of whether to play your fighter as a STR/CON heavy armor wearer, a STR/DEX medium armor wearer, or a DEX/STR light armor wearer shouldn't affect your combat effectiveness.
As for your shield idea, it makes a certain amount of sense. It would be the equivalent of older edition armor check penalties - shields do slow you down. I'm not especially happy about using it as an AC equalizer, since it has other drawbacks in the form of not being able to use two-handed weapons. Of course, then we're looking into the can of worms that is the suckiness of finesse weapons canceling out the necessity of using one-handed weapons to keep your AC up. I'd sooner fix finesse weapons and two weapon fighting and then make shield vs. two (handed) weapon into an AC vs. DPS question instead of just assuming that all light armor wearers have chosen AC. I don't like heavy armor being the strictly superior option, and I don't think encumberance makes up for it.
AlmightyK: still not getting you. Are you trying to suggest light armor should have the highest max AC?
Storyteller: actually, across levels your AC is generally as good or better with light armor than heavy (heavy might pull ahead briefly when you get chain, depending on when that is and how high your DEX is). Yes you can't have a DEX of 20 until 8th level, but you probably can't have full plate until then either. And Medium armor only makes DEX crap if you don't care about DEX saves and DEX skills, which are at least as numerous as saves and skills for any of the other stats. At worst, it's making DEX a little more on par with stats like INT WIS CHA.
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9 months ago ::
Sep 01, 2012 - 8:23AM
#9
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But dex is usefull for other things, such as ranged attacks and stealth.
There is a Strength ranged weapon (throwing axe), meaning Dex is really only useful for saves and skills, leaving it as less useful and important than Wisdom--about on par with Charisma and Intelligence.
Dex should not be a superstat that every class needs to survive.
I want every stat to be important for every class. Charisma and Intelligence are weak and the new armor system makes Dex weak, too.
The fact that heavy armour gives you the best AC seems logical; it is pricey and causes you to lose out on mobility. Also, realistically, unless you are super humanly quick, how will a person in leather compare in defense to somebody in full plate?
It's no more pricey than the other armors after level 1. And mobility is almost a non-factor. If you don't play with a map, the difference between 25' speed and 30' speed is totally irrelevant. If you do use a battle map (I don't), it still will only rarely make any difference. Disadvantage on Stealth is something, I suppose, but hardly a huge deal--and personally, I'd be fine with Heavy Armor not carrying those penalties.
AlmightyK: still not getting you. Are you trying to suggest light armor should have the highest max AC?
Personally, I think it should, yes. Light Armored people invested in an attribute--those are finite points with a high value. The Heavy Armor guy basically just threw on some gear. Why should gear > attributes?
Storyteller: actually, across levels your AC is generally as good or better with light armor than heavy (heavy might pull ahead briefly when you get chain, depending on when that is and how high your DEX is).
That's not true. Heavy Armor is ahead from level 1 (which is when you can get Chainmail). Light Armor only equals Heavy Armor if you have a 20 Dex, which will be extremely rare. And the highest AC achievable in Next is gained by being a Mountain Dwarf in Heavy Armor. I am the "you can't hit me" guy, usually, and I hate both dwarves and the aesthetics of heavy armor, so this is distressing to me.
Yes you can't have a DEX of 20 until 8th level, but you probably can't have full plate until then either.
You don't need it. If you have 20 Dex and wear leather, my Chainmail's AC equals yours. If you upgrade to Displacer Beast Hide, then I should get to upgrade to Banded, and you still, at best, equal me. And while you've spent all your stat points on Dex, I was able to do other things with my stats.
And Medium armor only makes DEX crap if you don't care about DEX saves and DEX skills, which are at least as numerous as saves and skills for any of the other stats. At worst, it's making DEX a little more on par with stats like INT WIS CHA.
Yes, it is making Dex on par with Int and Cha, the worst two stats in the game. Wisdom is used for more saves (and more important, CC-type saves) as well as the best skill (Perception), so I would not lump them together.
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9 months ago ::
Sep 01, 2012 - 9:33AM
#10
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Date Joined:
Apr 14, 2004
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Medium armor needs to be removed.
+1
Yes you can't have a DEX of 20 until 8th level, but you probably can't have full plate until then either.
Why can't you start at a 20 dex? Roll 4d6 and get 18. Take a race with +1 dex (like human or elf) then take a class that has +1 dex (like rogue). 18+1+1=20 in my book...
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