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Switch to Forum Live View Is my fighter living up to his potential?
9 months ago  ::  Aug 31, 2012 - 9:44PM #11
Tempest_Stormwind
Date Joined: Jun 20, 2004
Posts: 4,770
The thing is, these aren't all feats.


Power Attack - Feat, Player's Handbook
Improved Bull Rush - Feat, Player's Handbook
Leap Attack - Feat, Complete Adventurer
Shock Trooper -Tactical feat, Complete Warrior (you want the Heedless Charge maneuver)
any of the White Raven charges - Maneuvers can be learned via Martial Study or a dip in any of the martial classes. A warblade or crusader dip can be quite useful for uberchargers due to getting the Leading the Charge stance for free as well.
Headlong Rush - Feat, one of the Faerun books. 
Twisted Charge - Skill trick, Complete Scoundrel
Nimble Charge - Skill trick, Complete Scoundrel
Dungeon Crasher - Alternate class feature, Dungeonscape; note that this works best with Knockback (Feat, Races of Stone), which requires Large size, and that a few of your other options get size benefits too, so you may want to keep Juggernaut.
Thicket of Blades - Stance, Tome of Battle. This is more for AoO tanks, but you can get it (along with Leading the Charge and a White Raven charge strike) with a two-level Crusader dip. Make sure that you have AT LEAST SIX non-Crusader levels available before taking Crusader 2 for this to work.
Pounce - Not a feat nor anything else, but the name for the general ability to deliver a full attack on a charge. This is easiest to obtain via a one-level dip into Barbarian using Complete Champion's lion totem.


If you want, it IS possible to make a hybrid Ubercharger / Lockdown - see the Pinball Brothers link in my signature for an example. Juggernaut will let you do it with races other than Goliath, too.

Cancer prognosis: I am now cancer-free.

Weekly Optimization Series: Show
These are NOT all my creations! The lead authors are identified as follows:
[TS] Tempest Stormwind, [AR] Andarious Rosethorn, [RT] Radical Taoist, [SN] Sionnis, [DH] DisposableHero_, [SH] Seishi.

[TS] The Pinball Brothers: Large And In Charge (Melee, Lockdown, Charge, Juggling)
[TS] Ashardalon Reborn: I Will Swallow Your Soul (Melee, Fear, Negative Levels, AoE, Theme)
[AR] "A"-Game Paladin: Play That Funky Music, Knight Boy! (Team Support, Melee, Theme, Single-Class)
[RT] Uncanny Trapsmith: Get in, make it look like an accident, get out. (Skillmonkey, Stealth/Scout/Infiltration, Unorthodox Methods, Theme)
[AR] Wizsassin: *Everything* is permitted. (Spellcaster, Support, Sneak Attack, Utility)
[TS] Phantom Rush: General Gish Gouda. (Gish, Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Early-Entry PrC)
[TS] Storm Knight: Another kind of gish. (Melee/"Gish", Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Unorthodox Methods)
[TS] Inevitable Nightmare: The weapon you only have to fire once. (Melee, "Unorthodox" Methods (no charging), Reliability)
[AR] Captain Constitution: The number one threat to America. (Melee, TOUGHTOUGHTOUGH, Defense, Theme)
[AR] Nuker: I casts the spells that makes the peoples fall down! (Spellcaster, damage, blasting, damage)
[TS] Dread Lord of the Dead: Let the Reaping Begin! (NPC-only, Variable (combat/casting/leadership), Iconic Villain, Theme)
[AR] Heavy Crusader: No Rest. No Mercy. No Matter What. (Melee, Damage (No charging), Variable, Theme).
[TS] Gun Fu: It's bullet time (Ranged, THEORETICAL, Twin weapons, Theme)
[RT] Face First: We should talk. (Psionic, social, mind-control, info-management)
[SN] Chaingun Porcupine: Never Enuff Dakka. (Ranged, Skirmishing, Spike Damage, Incarnum)
[RT] Always On Edge: The Mortal Draw deals death. (Melee, Generalist, Dungeoneering, Stunt)
[AR] Feral Druid: Real feral taste. Zero druid calories. (Melee, offense, damage, murder)
[RT] Rusty!: Man's Best Friend (Sentry, Support, Backup, Rearguard)
[RT] The T3 (Tashalatora Triple Threat): My Kung Fu is More Powerful (Hybrid, Flex-Function, Melee, Caster)
[RT] The #1 Snoipah: Boom. 'Eadshot. (Caster, Theme, Spike, Trapscout)
[AR] Dreamblade: Rest in Pieces. (Melee, Damage, Single-Class, Combo/Momentum)
[AR] Evasion Tank: “When fighting angry blind men, is best to stay out of the way.” (Melee, Tank, Unorthodox Methods (attack negation), Theme)
[DH] Psycarnum Warrior: ↑↑↓↓←→←→BA Start (Melee, Tank, Psionics, Incarnum, 1337 h4x)
[AR] Heavy Weapons Elf: WHO TOUCHED MY BOW? (Ranged, Cohort, Damage, Unorthodox Methods (ranged ToB))
[RT] Gnowhere Gnome: A little man who wasn't there (Caster, Stealth, Single-Class, Elusive)
[AR] Uberflank: I got your back. (Melee, support, stunt, teamwork)
[TS] Flip the Bird: Everyday I'm shuffling (Ranged, harrier, unorthodox methods (ranged ToB / off-turn movement), support)
[DH] Eat Sleep Gank: Real Ultimate Power (Stealth, Assassination, Spike, Magic Versatility)
[AR] Slash and Burn: Mind, Body, Blade, Flame / Aspects of a greater whole / which delivers death. (Melee, Theme (flex-style), Damage, Stunt)
[RT] Edge of the Light: Cut, Fade to Black (Melee, Defense/Offense, Momentum, Tactical)
[RT] Quiet Murder: Cut throats, not corners. (Melee, Stealth, Harrier, Tactical)
[TS] Wand Overdrive: Say Hello to my little friends. (Caster, support/artillery/variable, wand specialist)
[RT] God Hand: What did the five fingers say to the face? (Melee/Gish, Unarmed, SAD, Theme)
[AR] Zero Buff Time Gish: Try to keep up! (Gish, Speed, Movement, Opportunity)
[TS] Robo Tackle: I Am Iron Man. (Melee, setting-specific (Eberron), positioning, theme, stunt)


Want to see how the entire group rolls?
[All] Party Optimization Showcase: Dead for Nothing
[TS/RT/AR] Optimization Article: The Flash Step
[RT] Optimization Article: Kung Fu Witchcraft
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9 months ago  ::  Sep 01, 2012 - 2:43PM #12
aelryinth
Date Joined: Jul 8, 2001
Posts: 4,225

Aug 31, 2012 -- 6:11PM, Krazed wrote:

Thank you all very much for your extremely helpful advice and insight! I've decided to drop tanking and go full-on Ubercharger. I've written down all the feats everyone mentioned for charging. Please tell me if I'm missing any:


Power Attack
Improved Bull Rush
Leap Attack
Shock Trooper
any of the White Raven charges
Headlong Rush
Twisted Charge
Nimble Charge
Dungeon Crasher
Thicket of Blades
Pounce

P.S. The DM allows us to take Pathfinder feats. That's where Juggernaut is from. (Sorry I forget to mention it before.) 





The White Raven charges are highly situational, and low in power unless you allow them to multiply on a crit. Most Uberchargers are built on Power Attack and 2h weapons. If you're going one handed weapons, yeah, they're okay, but you'd better be playing a Warblade or Crusader so you get the higher level charges...and unless you're in a group that likes to charge, you'd be better off with the higher level strikes, instead.

Nimble Charge and Twisted Charge are likewise situational. You can do almost everything they do by buying Boots of Flying. Headlong Rush isn't going to give you such a huge return on damage, either.

Thicket of Blades is a great stance, but you'll need Combat Reflexes and Reach to truly make it work. Lockdown works because at later levels it punishes people for moving...or for not moving, and does double damage when it does. If you're only planning on getting one AoE, Thicket might not be worth it.

==Aelryinth

Fighter vs Warblade analysis  http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19573526/Analyzing_the_Fighter_vs_The_Warblade

The Lockdown F/20 iconic build    http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19856162/A_little_Lock_build_for_you
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9 months ago  ::  Sep 01, 2012 - 4:26PM #13
Tempest_Stormwind
Date Joined: Jun 20, 2004
Posts: 4,770

Sep 1, 2012 -- 2:43PM, aelryinth wrote:

 The White Raven charges are highly situational, and low in power unless you allow them to multiply on a crit.



Considering how you can use the White Raven charges any time you could use a normal charge - i.e. any time the ubercharge trick would matter - and they both add extra damage (even without a crit, it's not insubstantial) and, most importantly, prevent any AoOs from your charge movement, I would find this an unfair characterization. Especially because every element of the ubercharge will still work on a Battle Leader's Charge. You're not using it for the +10 damage. You're using it for the no AoOs.

Nimble Charge and Twisted Charge are likewise situational. You can do almost everything they do by buying Boots of Flying. Headlong Rush isn't going to give you such a huge return on damage, either.



I listed Nimble and Twisted because they only cost skill points (and what else would a fighter get with those points?). Furthermore, not even Boots of Flying can give you twisted charge's benefit (which lets you charge without moving in a straight line). Similarly, Headlong Rush is a double-damage effect - ANY multiplier on ubercharging is incredible. Remember the huge rush to get Battle Jump early on? That's an even more conditional multiplier than Headlong Rush.

Cancer prognosis: I am now cancer-free.

Weekly Optimization Series: Show
These are NOT all my creations! The lead authors are identified as follows:
[TS] Tempest Stormwind, [AR] Andarious Rosethorn, [RT] Radical Taoist, [SN] Sionnis, [DH] DisposableHero_, [SH] Seishi.

[TS] The Pinball Brothers: Large And In Charge (Melee, Lockdown, Charge, Juggling)
[TS] Ashardalon Reborn: I Will Swallow Your Soul (Melee, Fear, Negative Levels, AoE, Theme)
[AR] "A"-Game Paladin: Play That Funky Music, Knight Boy! (Team Support, Melee, Theme, Single-Class)
[RT] Uncanny Trapsmith: Get in, make it look like an accident, get out. (Skillmonkey, Stealth/Scout/Infiltration, Unorthodox Methods, Theme)
[AR] Wizsassin: *Everything* is permitted. (Spellcaster, Support, Sneak Attack, Utility)
[TS] Phantom Rush: General Gish Gouda. (Gish, Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Early-Entry PrC)
[TS] Storm Knight: Another kind of gish. (Melee/"Gish", Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Unorthodox Methods)
[TS] Inevitable Nightmare: The weapon you only have to fire once. (Melee, "Unorthodox" Methods (no charging), Reliability)
[AR] Captain Constitution: The number one threat to America. (Melee, TOUGHTOUGHTOUGH, Defense, Theme)
[AR] Nuker: I casts the spells that makes the peoples fall down! (Spellcaster, damage, blasting, damage)
[TS] Dread Lord of the Dead: Let the Reaping Begin! (NPC-only, Variable (combat/casting/leadership), Iconic Villain, Theme)
[AR] Heavy Crusader: No Rest. No Mercy. No Matter What. (Melee, Damage (No charging), Variable, Theme).
[TS] Gun Fu: It's bullet time (Ranged, THEORETICAL, Twin weapons, Theme)
[RT] Face First: We should talk. (Psionic, social, mind-control, info-management)
[SN] Chaingun Porcupine: Never Enuff Dakka. (Ranged, Skirmishing, Spike Damage, Incarnum)
[RT] Always On Edge: The Mortal Draw deals death. (Melee, Generalist, Dungeoneering, Stunt)
[AR] Feral Druid: Real feral taste. Zero druid calories. (Melee, offense, damage, murder)
[RT] Rusty!: Man's Best Friend (Sentry, Support, Backup, Rearguard)
[RT] The T3 (Tashalatora Triple Threat): My Kung Fu is More Powerful (Hybrid, Flex-Function, Melee, Caster)
[RT] The #1 Snoipah: Boom. 'Eadshot. (Caster, Theme, Spike, Trapscout)
[AR] Dreamblade: Rest in Pieces. (Melee, Damage, Single-Class, Combo/Momentum)
[AR] Evasion Tank: “When fighting angry blind men, is best to stay out of the way.” (Melee, Tank, Unorthodox Methods (attack negation), Theme)
[DH] Psycarnum Warrior: ↑↑↓↓←→←→BA Start (Melee, Tank, Psionics, Incarnum, 1337 h4x)
[AR] Heavy Weapons Elf: WHO TOUCHED MY BOW? (Ranged, Cohort, Damage, Unorthodox Methods (ranged ToB))
[RT] Gnowhere Gnome: A little man who wasn't there (Caster, Stealth, Single-Class, Elusive)
[AR] Uberflank: I got your back. (Melee, support, stunt, teamwork)
[TS] Flip the Bird: Everyday I'm shuffling (Ranged, harrier, unorthodox methods (ranged ToB / off-turn movement), support)
[DH] Eat Sleep Gank: Real Ultimate Power (Stealth, Assassination, Spike, Magic Versatility)
[AR] Slash and Burn: Mind, Body, Blade, Flame / Aspects of a greater whole / which delivers death. (Melee, Theme (flex-style), Damage, Stunt)
[RT] Edge of the Light: Cut, Fade to Black (Melee, Defense/Offense, Momentum, Tactical)
[RT] Quiet Murder: Cut throats, not corners. (Melee, Stealth, Harrier, Tactical)
[TS] Wand Overdrive: Say Hello to my little friends. (Caster, support/artillery/variable, wand specialist)
[RT] God Hand: What did the five fingers say to the face? (Melee/Gish, Unarmed, SAD, Theme)
[AR] Zero Buff Time Gish: Try to keep up! (Gish, Speed, Movement, Opportunity)
[TS] Robo Tackle: I Am Iron Man. (Melee, setting-specific (Eberron), positioning, theme, stunt)


Want to see how the entire group rolls?
[All] Party Optimization Showcase: Dead for Nothing
[TS/RT/AR] Optimization Article: The Flash Step
[RT] Optimization Article: Kung Fu Witchcraft
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9 months ago  ::  Sep 01, 2012 - 8:31PM #14
Andarious-Rosethorn
Date Joined: May 23, 2012
Posts: 410
Important note. Leading the Charge is a free +1/2 your level to all charge damage.
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9 months ago  ::  Sep 02, 2012 - 8:17AM #15
Krusk
Date Joined: Nov 30, 2005
Posts: 4,923

Sep 1, 2012 -- 4:26PM, Tempest_Stormwind wrote:


I listed Nimble and Twisted because they only cost skill points (and what else would a fighter get with those points?).



This is really the key part.  Sure they aren't awesome and may not be worth a feat. But some skill points? I don't think any fighter would object to that. What else do they plan on, more ranks in jump?

5e comments and thoughts all in one place. Check it out to provide feedback, mock, or steal ideas.
http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/28835423/Krusks_5e_Design_Goals?sdb=1
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9 months ago  ::  Sep 02, 2012 - 11:01AM #16
aelryinth
Date Joined: Jul 8, 2001
Posts: 4,225
The no AoO's for a charge is nice, but remember...if he's not a warblade or crusader, he can only do that 1/fight, and at best every other round. He's also going to need manifester levels to get the higher level charges, and he said he was playing a fighter.

The AoO's is only important if your opponent outreaches you. You can combine Tumble on a charge and render that a moot point, too.

Furthermore, the 'no straight path' is usually because of terrain in the way, the same problem as difficult terrain. Generally speaking, unless you're trying to go around a corner, you will either jump it all, or just fly (which gives you a speed boost to pay for the tumbling).

Headlong Rush might work well, conceeded, since you are already taking the AC hit.

As for the skill points...more Ranks in Jump, of course!

==Aelryinth
Fighter vs Warblade analysis  http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19573526/Analyzing_the_Fighter_vs_The_Warblade

The Lockdown F/20 iconic build    http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19856162/A_little_Lock_build_for_you
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9 months ago  ::  Sep 03, 2012 - 8:36PM #17
Krazed
Date Joined: Jun 7, 2010
Posts: 118
Sorry, I seem to have misled you guys. Juggernaut isn't from Pathfinder, it's 3.5 homebrew found on the D&D Wiki.
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9 months ago  ::  Sep 04, 2012 - 3:54AM #18
RadicalTaoist
Date Joined: Aug 17, 2004
Posts: 2,531

Sep 3, 2012 -- 8:36PM, Krazed wrote:

it's 3.5 homebrew found on the D&D Wiki.



Booo! Hissss! Use this instead for most needs, especially feats.

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9 months ago  ::  Sep 04, 2012 - 2:56PM #19
awaken_D_M_golem
Date Joined: Dec 22, 2006
Posts: 2,653
Hey, if your Fighter wasn't killed by a House Cat
during level 1, he is living "up" to his potential.

(wink)
my kitty avatar's Royale Lineage ---> http://static.neatorama.com/images/2009-09/original-keyboard-cats.jpg

new helpful bg/mmx refugee locale ---> http://www.ruleofcool.com/smf/index.php/topic,632.0.html
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