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10 months ago ::
Aug 25, 2012 - 12:35PM
#1
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Date Joined:
Apr 21, 2004
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There are SO many posts about "I hate vancian casting", etc
So my question is why? Is it the "5 minute work-day" thought process?
Is it the requirement to have to plan for the spells you might need?
Or is it something else?
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10 months ago ::
Aug 25, 2012 - 12:45PM
#2
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I hate the restrictions it puts on my ability to run an "organic" game. The power of Vancian magic (and daily powers in general) is inversely proportional to the amount of action you see on a given day. That means the power level is wildly swingy, and further, it is exceedingly likely for the power to average at the higher end, as realistically, it is unlikely to get into lots and lots of fights.
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10 months ago ::
Aug 25, 2012 - 12:56PM
#3
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I think there are a number of drawbacks to using the Vancian system, and honestly I don't see any benefit to the system or any reason to continue using it other than that's how its always been done. I get that some folks would prefer it over say a spell point system, but I don't see why you can't have any caster using any system, simply by swapping out spell rules.
Personally, I think the main reason I don't like it, is that the system relies on the rest of the party and the DM to be used effectively. I used the system for years without this problem, and I like to think I was pretty good about selecting my spells. However more recently I've joined a different group, and often I can't convince the party to either gather intel in advance, or get useful information out of the DM, so I am forced to prepare spells blindly, which inherently forces me to pick spells which are most likely to be useful, i.e. combat spells.
The 5 minute work day is always a concern, but for the most part I haven't had that problem in my groups, and we typically do a good job of pacing on our own. Other problems I've seen come up, are the amount of time players spend selecting their spells after a nights rest which stalls the game, or missing a key spell that requires the wizard to go rest in order to memorize it. Also preparing spells in advance is daunting for new players, and at low levels where spells are few, the selection process is critical to success.
More recently, we've used a homegrown spell point system, and although it makes casters more flexible (giving them an edge), it solved the other issues, and worked better for the group.
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10 months ago ::
Aug 25, 2012 - 1:01PM
#4
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Date Joined:
Apr 21, 2004
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More recently, we've used a homegrown spell point system, and although it makes casters more flexible (giving them an edge), it solved the other issues, and worked better for the group.
Beside flexibility, a point system doesn't fix the "5 minute workday" which is very interesting. A lot of complaints I read are people saying the Wizard (Vancain) uses all his big spells 1st combat then forces the party to rest. The point system leads to more of that play-style than Vancian does. If I don't have spell levels to reserve and can uses 3 points to cast a 3rd level spell than having to cast 3 1st level spells, the blow you load play-style is more likley with a point buy system than a true Vancian system.
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10 months ago ::
Aug 25, 2012 - 2:43PM
#5
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Date Joined:
Jan 15, 2009
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Back during 1e I hated the flavor of it, utterly independent on its game play effects (which have been beaten to death on here). "Knowledge is power" but in effect the mu has a cookbook and no true knowledge AND amnesia on top of it. Spell slots were further pretty much unexplained a convenient and meta-game limit that was not as natural feeling as just about any other ideas I could cook up and even now I am pretty good at reflavoring and I still find slots take convoluted unsatisfying back flips that amount to "its just magic"
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10 months ago ::
Aug 25, 2012 - 2:55PM
#6
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Date Joined:
Apr 21, 2004
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Back during 1e I hated the flavor of it, utterly independent on its game play effects (which have been beaten to death on here). "Knowledge is power" but in effect the mu has a cookbook and no true knowledge AND amnesia on top of it. Spell slots were further pretty much unexplained a convenient and meta-game limit that was not as natural feeling as just about any other ideas I could cook up and even now I am pretty good at reflavoring and I still find slots take convoluted unsatisfying back flips that amount to "its just magic"
I get this. I do think that it's more of a flavor they where trying to give the class, classic merlin magic. I like the fact that spell casters have different mechanics and there has to be a way to limit a spell casters power otherwise there is no reason why everyone wouldnt be spell casters.
When I read your post it seems to me you don't like the feel/flavor of the mechanic because it wasn't well explained but there doesn't to be anything about why you don't like the mechanic of the system.
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10 months ago ::
Aug 25, 2012 - 3:14PM
#7
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Is it the "5 minute work-day" thought process problem?
Among others, yes.
Also it leads to unbalanced play, if not severely nerfed, because the argument "the wizard can only be effective X amount per day" will always be present (no matter that the argument fails when you consider that fighters can only be effective as long as clerics or other healers can heal them, and thus cannot run infinitely on and on).
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10 months ago ::
Aug 25, 2012 - 3:14PM
#8
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Date Joined:
May 27, 2012
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Power-level aside, I dislike how it portrays spellcasters as foolish based on out-of-game decisions: the wizard is supposed to be really smart, and the cleric is supposed to be very intuitive, but their ability to have the right spells on hand is based on the player.
Having the wrong spell at hand is supposed to be the cost for the incredible power of those spells. In practice, though, if someone knows the right spell for the job but doesn't have it prepared, then whenever practical the party will call it a day to let them prepare that spell. It just slows down the entire session.
The metagame is not the game.
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10 months ago ::
Aug 25, 2012 - 3:19PM
#9
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Is it the "5 minute work-day" thought process problem?
Among others, yes.
Also it leads to unbalanced play, if not severely nerfed, because the argument "the wizard can only be effective X amount per day" will always be present (no matter that the argument fails when you consider that fighters can only be effective as long as clerics or other healers can heal them, and thus cannot run infinitely on and on).
During the current play test its likely the fighter won't get through 2-3 encounters before calling for a 5mwd rest...
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10 months ago ::
Aug 25, 2012 - 3:27PM
#10
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Date Joined:
Apr 21, 2004
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Is it the "5 minute work-day" thought process problem?
Among others, yes.
Also it leads to unbalanced play, if not severely nerfed, because the argument "the wizard can only be effective X amount per day" will always be present (no matter that the argument fails when you consider that fighters can only be effective as long as clerics or other healers can heal them, and thus cannot run infinitely on and on).
How is the point system of the sorcerer any better than the wizards? It seems to be worse, the sorcerer can spend through their daily allotment a lot faster since they are not forced to cast lower level spells.
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