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10 months ago ::
Aug 28, 2012 - 7:27PM
#41
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Date Joined:
Jul 31, 2007
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Or one that thinks monsters should use basic tactics and actually fight like they want to survive. You know, what you seem to think is being a jerk...
So here's the thing. If you're home is being invaded by a mob swinging axes and your family and friends are beind murdered by some massive monster you are not going to say well at least we can take out the easy to hit nobody in the back. No what you are going to do is try to slow down the ax wielding crazy while the rest of your family and friends try to get away.
You see survival isn't killing the least defended character in a group because then you are leaving yourself open to that single blow that is going to end your short but survival inspired attack on the wrong monster. When the wizard opens up with that burning hands or his sleep spell then maybe they might think about hacking into his unarmored self. (Probably to find to their dismay that he's not as easy to kill as they might have wanted to believe.)
Were I to attempt to play a wizzard in a game where the DM automatically attacks me first just because I'm the easiest to hit or have what appears to be the best chance to do serious harm before I actually do that then he's a jerk and I'm not playing in his game ever again. If the guy hates wizards that bad he should just ban the class and save everyone the hastle.
Koblods and goblins are near morons they can't figure out which shoe goes on which foot let alone determine that someone is a wizard, especiaally if they never saw one before. Playing monsters according to their intelligence, in this case, means they are ignorant and unsophisticated. They react by lashing out at those things that hurt them not some shadowy figure hiding behind two or three big ax swinging threats to their survival and that of their clan.
But I guess I'm wasting my time trying to get this point across. So I suggest you keep plaing with your jerk DM or continue to be that DM if you feel the need.
This this this.... This is what I have tried to explain on a few of these threads. If you have never been in combat or in a fight you have no idea what it's like. The term fog of war came around before it was used in video games. When in combat, you become somewhat blind to anything not directly related to the biggest threat and your quickest way out. Everything happens so fast, your adrenaline starts pumping, you get tunnel vision and can only see your IMMEDIATE surroundings unless you're lucky and see something out of the corner of your eye (I'd say about 10 to 15 feet or so in a melee fight). You know this guy can kill the hell out of you and his blade is the ONLY threat in your world. You don't have time to think smart, you only have time to either try to get the hell out of Dodge, or hurt him just enough that you can get the hell out of Dodge. Ultimately, the only thing that matters is getting out of the damned thing alive. If you kill him, you can sort through the situation a bit better afterwards, assuming you live.
Whether sparring in 'realistic' sword games, or being in a gunfight, you pretty much default to reacting the same way instinctively, and that's what you should do. It's your body trying to save you by taking over your brain. It takes IMMENSE amounts of training to convince your body to even allow for other instincts, let alone allowing for tactical combat and a broad overview of the scenario. This is why leaders of battles don't stand right in the thick of the fight. They stand just a bit farther back so they can stay just seperated enough from the fray that they can survey the chaos and make enough sense of it to direct traffic. They train their troops to at least hear their voice in combat in order to give orders that will be more likely to get the WHOLE group out of trouble instead of just individuals.
Those leaders that *DO* wade directly in to combat are trained like monks to be able to control their faculties completely in combat. They have to live through crazy ass stuff to get to that point, AND be trained to do it. This is why wizards are supposed to be dangerous when grouped up... You don't have TIME to pay attention to the pansy in the rain coat until bat guano flies from his hands and all of you are on fire.
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10 months ago ::
Aug 28, 2012 - 10:20PM
#42
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I happen to think that -- just maybe-- these guys have playtested a few times and may not be dimmest bulbs on the chandelier. You see, I think they know that 4-6 HP wizards aren't all that viable, but in response to concerns about pc's being too tough, and not wanting to just say, "start at 3rd level then!" they have decided to make the first couple of levels fast. Real fast. So if you can survive 2-3 decent encounters, you will get thatextra hit die. Survive another 4-5 and you get another. And maybe a perk or two. That way, they get to keep starting HP's low, but have viable low level game play. The con is that real play is now starting at level 3 or so.
Of course, that may not be satisfying for some, but I can live with it. Assuming my wizard can.
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10 months ago ::
Aug 29, 2012 - 6:49AM
#43
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Date Joined:
Aug 31, 2008
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We played with a 4 person party and I've got to say the low hp are mostly mitigated by the often terrible attack bonuses of monsters. The Drow Wight in the house center only had a 50/50 chance to hit our wizard, which he did once (for a pitiful 4 damage, admittedly). Seconds later our tough-as-nails war cleric got in his grill and healing worded the wizard back to health. The wight didn't get anymore chances.
None of our players went down after four encounters. There were some close calls (Grey Ooze), but positioning and working their roles kept them alive fine.
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10 months ago ::
Aug 29, 2012 - 9:16AM
#44
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Date Joined:
Jul 31, 2007
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We played with a 4 person party and I've got to say the low hp are mostly mitigated by the often terrible attack bonuses of monsters. The Drow Wight in the house center only had a 50/50 chance to hit our wizard, which he did once (for a pitiful 4 damage, admittedly). Seconds later our tough-as-nails war cleric got in his grill and healing worded the wizard back to health. The wight didn't get anymore chances.
None of our players went down after four encounters. There were some close calls (Grey Ooze), but positioning and working their roles kept them alive fine.
This is pretty close to what I've seen since the new set came out. I did end up having one war cleric drop due to a minotaur charge. These minotaurs were trying to hit and run with charging attacks to get the players. After the war cleric (who was basically a tank) dropped, I was worried they wouldn't be able to get through the encounter (2 minotaurs) but the players (level 3) responded with hold persons that stopped them from running any more.
Actually, that might have been in the 1st playtest set....
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9 months ago ::
Sep 02, 2012 - 6:59PM
#45
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Or one that thinks monsters should use basic tactics and actually fight like they want to survive. You know, what you seem to think is being a jerk...
So here's the thing. If you're home is being invaded by a mob swinging axes and your family and friends are beind murdered by some massive monster you are not going to say well at least we can take out the easy to hit nobody in the back. No what you are going to do is try to slow down the ax wielding crazy while the rest of your family and friends try to get away.
You see survival isn't killing the least defended character in a group because then you are leaving yourself open to that single blow that is going to end your short but survival inspired attack on the wrong monster. When the wizard opens up with that burning hands or his sleep spell then maybe they might think about hacking into his unarmored self. (Probably to find to their dismay that he's not as easy to kill as they might have wanted to believe.)
Were I to attempt to play a wizzard in a game where the DM automatically attacks me first just because I'm the easiest to hit or have what appears to be the best chance to do serious harm before I actually do that then he's a jerk and I'm not playing in his game ever again. If the guy hates wizards that bad he should just ban the class and save everyone the hastle.
Koblods and goblins are near morons they can't figure out which shoe goes on which foot let alone determine that someone is a wizard, especiaally if they never saw one before. Playing monsters according to their intelligence, in this case, means they are ignorant and unsophisticated. They react by lashing out at those things that hurt them not some shadowy figure hiding behind two or three big ax swinging threats to their survival and that of their clan.
But I guess I'm wasting my time trying to get this point across. So I suggest you keep plaing with your jerk DM or continue to be that DM if you feel the need.
This this this.... This is what I have tried to explain on a few of these threads. If you have never been in combat or in a fight you have no idea what it's like. The term fog of war came around before it was used in video games. When in combat, you become somewhat blind to anything not directly related to the biggest threat and your quickest way out. Everything happens so fast, your adrenaline starts pumping, you get tunnel vision and can only see your IMMEDIATE surroundings unless you're lucky and see something out of the corner of your eye (I'd say about 10 to 15 feet or so in a melee fight). You know this guy can kill the hell out of you and his blade is the ONLY threat in your world. You don't have time to think smart, you only have time to either try to get the hell out of Dodge, or hurt him just enough that you can get the hell out of Dodge. Ultimately, the only thing that matters is getting out of the damned thing alive. If you kill him, you can sort through the situation a bit better afterwards, assuming you live.
Whether sparring in 'realistic' sword games, or being in a gunfight, you pretty much default to reacting the same way instinctively, and that's what you should do. It's your body trying to save you by taking over your brain. It takes IMMENSE amounts of training to convince your body to even allow for other instincts, let alone allowing for tactical combat and a broad overview of the scenario. This is why leaders of battles don't stand right in the thick of the fight. They stand just a bit farther back so they can stay just seperated enough from the fray that they can survey the chaos and make enough sense of it to direct traffic. They train their troops to at least hear their voice in combat in order to give orders that will be more likely to get the WHOLE group out of trouble instead of just individuals.
Those leaders that *DO* wade directly in to combat are trained like monks to be able to control their faculties completely in combat. They have to live through crazy ass stuff to get to that point, AND be trained to do it. This is why wizards are supposed to be dangerous when grouped up... You don't have TIME to pay attention to the pansy in the rain coat until bat guano flies from his hands and all of you are on fire.
This! Well put in both quotes.
I understand that it is a matter of dm style but I have to totally agree with those two...
Instincts of the hunter differ from instincts of the pray, and when the pcs ambush the cave the kobolds are the victims...
Poor kobolds...
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9 months ago ::
Sep 02, 2012 - 11:03PM
#46
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Or one that thinks monsters should use basic tactics and actually fight like they want to survive. You know, what you seem to think is being a jerk...
So here's the thing. If you're home is being invaded by a mob swinging axes and your family and friends are beind murdered by some massive monster you are not going to say well at least we can take out the easy to hit nobody in the back. No what you are going to do is try to slow down the ax wielding crazy while the rest of your family and friends try to get away.
You see survival isn't killing the least defended character in a group because then you are leaving yourself open to that single blow that is going to end your short but survival inspired attack on the wrong monster. When the wizard opens up with that burning hands or his sleep spell then maybe they might think about hacking into his unarmored self. (Probably to find to their dismay that he's not as easy to kill as they might have wanted to believe.)
Were I to attempt to play a wizzard in a game where the DM automatically attacks me first just because I'm the easiest to hit or have what appears to be the best chance to do serious harm before I actually do that then he's a jerk and I'm not playing in his game ever again. If the guy hates wizards that bad he should just ban the class and save everyone the hastle.
Koblods and goblins are near morons they can't figure out which shoe goes on which foot let alone determine that someone is a wizard, especiaally if they never saw one before. Playing monsters according to their intelligence, in this case, means they are ignorant and unsophisticated. They react by lashing out at those things that hurt them not some shadowy figure hiding behind two or three big ax swinging threats to their survival and that of their clan.
But I guess I'm wasting my time trying to get this point across. So I suggest you keep plaing with your jerk DM or continue to be that DM if you feel the need.
This this this.... This is what I have tried to explain on a few of these threads. If you have never been in combat or in a fight you have no idea what it's like. The term fog of war came around before it was used in video games. When in combat, you become somewhat blind to anything not directly related to the biggest threat and your quickest way out. Everything happens so fast, your adrenaline starts pumping, you get tunnel vision and can only see your IMMEDIATE surroundings unless you're lucky and see something out of the corner of your eye (I'd say about 10 to 15 feet or so in a melee fight). You know this guy can kill the hell out of you and his blade is the ONLY threat in your world. You don't have time to think smart, you only have time to either try to get the hell out of Dodge, or hurt him just enough that you can get the hell out of Dodge. Ultimately, the only thing that matters is getting out of the damned thing alive. If you kill him, you can sort through the situation a bit better afterwards, assuming you live.
Whether sparring in 'realistic' sword games, or being in a gunfight, you pretty much default to reacting the same way instinctively, and that's what you should do. It's your body trying to save you by taking over your brain. It takes IMMENSE amounts of training to convince your body to even allow for other instincts, let alone allowing for tactical combat and a broad overview of the scenario. This is why leaders of battles don't stand right in the thick of the fight. They stand just a bit farther back so they can stay just seperated enough from the fray that they can survey the chaos and make enough sense of it to direct traffic. They train their troops to at least hear their voice in combat in order to give orders that will be more likely to get the WHOLE group out of trouble instead of just individuals.
Those leaders that *DO* wade directly in to combat are trained like monks to be able to control their faculties completely in combat. They have to live through crazy ass stuff to get to that point, AND be trained to do it. This is why wizards are supposed to be dangerous when grouped up... You don't have TIME to pay attention to the pansy in the rain coat until bat guano flies from his hands and all of you are on fire.
This! Well put in both quotes.
I understand that it is a matter of dm style but I have to totally agree with those two...
Instincts of the hunter differ from instincts of the pray, and when the pcs ambush the cave the kobolds are the victims...
Poor kobolds...
The monster manuals honestly do a real good job of explaining how the creatures think. Flipping through the 3e MM right now, I see that it says that bugbears tend to be sneaky and ambush weaker enemies. However, ogres will attack pretty much anything within their reach. People should do a little reading, it goes a long way 
My two copper.
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9 months ago ::
Sep 04, 2012 - 5:46PM
#47
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Date Joined:
Jul 31, 2007
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The monster manuals honestly do a real good job of explaining how the creatures think. Flipping through the 3e MM right now, I see that it says that bugbears tend to be sneaky and ambush weaker enemies. However, ogres will attack pretty much anything within their reach. People should do a little reading, it goes a long way
Yes, and saying that about bugbears is fine. They are born and bred to be the strongarm assassins of the goblinoids. These tactics are an important part of the level they are considered and experience they are worth.
That said, as always, when 5417 hits the fan, they do whatever they need to to live.
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9 months ago ::
Sep 05, 2012 - 5:47AM
#48
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The real starting level for 75+% of all 2e and 3e games was actually somewhere between 3rd and 6th level. Very few people (pretty much just people like those that commented above) actually wanted to play at level 1 because of how obnoxiously swingy it was....
I'm not sure that I can agree that this is an accurate statement. It certainly was not true at all of the groups I played with during that period.
75+% of all 2e and 3e games? Seriously? Where are you getting that number from?
At most, I remember people houseruling that you got to start with maximum hit points at first level. I think I remember a single game starting at 3rd level and that DM was derided for silliness; the players in that game universally agreed that it wasn't any fun to miss out on those first few levels.
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9 months ago ::
Sep 05, 2012 - 11:19AM
#49
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Date Joined:
Aug 21, 2009
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My thought is that hit points at first level should be calculated as: 5 + Constitution Modifier + Class Hit Die (rolled or take the average) The first number represents a character's innate ability to stay alive regardless of training. The rules can then present options to adjust this first number to taste. This provides variability with a guarenteed minimum while also using a consistent mechanic to represent hit points gained from Constitution and Class training.
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9 months ago ::
Sep 05, 2012 - 1:05PM
#50
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75+% of all 2e and 3e games? Seriously? Where are you getting that number from?
Personal experience over the past 20 years as well as experience talking about D&D on various forums.
You are literally the first person I ever encountered that actually liked levels 1-3. Everyone else was just rushing to get to the real game.
Many start at level 3 because it's the earliest you're really a viable character--that's when you have enough HP for sure to survive lucky shots, and when, in 3rd, you finished acquiring all the class features that formed the foundation of your class. Many other started at 6 becuase that's when Prestige Classes started.
I only really left 25% figuring there had to be someone, even though I had never encountered them, out there that liked the beginning. Plus, there were those E6 guys (though some of them even started the game at level 2 or 3).
For what it's worth, I've also never encountered anyone that actually liked playing past level 12 or so. In my opinion and experience, it seems like 3-12 or 6-12, were the most/only playable, fun levels. And that even goes for 4e, too--it was more balanced at higher levels than before, but it still wasn't fun.
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