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9 months ago ::
Sep 06, 2012 - 9:04AM
#51
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For what it's worth, I've also never encountered anyone that actually liked playing past level 12 or so. In my opinion and experience, it seems like 3-12 or 6-12, were the most/only playable, fun levels. And that even goes for 4e, too--it was more balanced at higher levels than before, but it still wasn't fun.
I like 11-19 is the best range for 4e. You get your paragon path at 11, and that opens up alot of character options but it's before things start getting silly.
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F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.
Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.
Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.
King Fisher Does an excellent job at keeping an enemy disabled in a few ways. Strong.
Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.
Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.
Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.
Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.
Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.
Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.
Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.
Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.
Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.
Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.
Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.
Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.
Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.
Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.
The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.
Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power
Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken
Unnamed Avenger|Runepriest/Hammer of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.
Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.
Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.
Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight, only far more broken.
Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.
Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.
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9 months ago ::
Sep 06, 2012 - 11:47AM
#52
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Date Joined:
Jul 12, 2008
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I vote for a racial hit die.
1d4 for elves, 1d6 for halflings, 1d8 for humans and 1d10 for dwarves. With the appropriate HP as well as the HD.
So a elven wizard would have 8+con bonus HP. A dwarven fighter would have 20+con bonus HP. Or, be cruel, and grant 1/2 max+1 off the racial HD, so 7+con bonus for the elven wizard and 16+con bonus for the dwarven fighter.
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9 months ago ::
Sep 06, 2012 - 3:53PM
#53
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I vote for a racial hit die.
1d4 for elves, 1d6 for halflings, 1d8 for humans and 1d10 for dwarves. With the appropriate HP as well as the HD.
So a elven wizard would have 8+con bonus HP. A dwarven fighter would have 20+con bonus HP. Or, be cruel, and grant 1/2 max+1 off the racial HD, so 7+con bonus for the elven wizard and 16+con bonus for the dwarven fighter.
That's a really big disparity at level one o_O
Edit: Plus that only adds more pressure to play one race over another. Who would play an elf fighter when they could be a dwarf? If you add a d4 vs d10 racial hit die, one just becomes obviously better instead of marginally.
My two copper.
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9 months ago ::
Sep 06, 2012 - 4:11PM
#54
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Date Joined:
Nov 24, 2007
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The only thing I agree with in this post is that Survivor is a wonky Specialty. It feels opposed to the design philosophy of "narrative, then player option". It really does feel arbitrary, roleplay-wise. Like it's connected too closely to stats, and not really to the universe much.
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9 months ago ::
Sep 08, 2012 - 10:17PM
#55
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I vote for a racial hit die.
1d4 for elves, 1d6 for halflings, 1d8 for humans and 1d10 for dwarves. With the appropriate HP as well as the HD.
So a elven wizard would have 8+con bonus HP. A dwarven fighter would have 20+con bonus HP. Or, be cruel, and grant 1/2 max+1 off the racial HD, so 7+con bonus for the elven wizard and 16+con bonus for the dwarven fighter.
That's a really big disparity at level one o_O
I agree that's a big gap at first level that's unlikely to make anything better. I think the biggest issue with HP at low levels is just how swingy it is. Lucky rolls you live, unlucky rolls you die; I'd rather see a bit more stability than that without losing the fear factor.
I'd like to see players start with Con score and no class HD at first, have the monsters attacks increase by +2. That way creatures hit more often, but no level appropriate monster is gong to take you down in a single hit, but focused fire will still do the trick. Then after first, have the HPs increase slower and have the various classes HP increases be more tightly grouped. Decrease monster damage if required to balance.
For wizards its particulary tough given their lack of AC and low HPs. The fighters get protect and parry, a shield wielding cleric can easily pickup guardian and wear heavy armor, the rogue spends half the combat hidden with almost no chance of being spotted, the wizards up chocolate creak without a popsicle stick.
And the gap will only increase as levels increase. The main problem with this is balancing damage in combat. In order to threaten the Defender types the hits and damage needs to be high, but those same attacks will utterly destroy the wizard.
Here's our group's HPs and AC at fourth level, stats are rolled, max HP at first, with subsequent levels being average or rolled based on player choice. The Sorcerer came out on top but rolled very well.
Sorcerer 48 HPs (Con 16, Hill Dwarf) AC 17 (Chainmail, Shield)
Fighter 47 HPs (Con 13, Toughness) AC 15 (Studded, Dex 14)
Fighter 42 HPs (Con 16) AC 16 (Leather, Dex 20)
Cleric 32 HPs (Con 14) AC 18 (Chainmail, Shield, Mountain Dwarf)
Wizard 21 HPs (Con 14) AC 13 (Dex 16)
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9 months ago ::
Sep 10, 2012 - 1:37PM
#56
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Date Joined:
Oct 25, 2007
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I ran into the wizard survivability problem this weekend. The wizard got too close to the human berserkers and fired off a spell, making himself into a priority target. A single swing and the wizard was unconscious.
Rather than fiddling with starting hit points, the game could do with an arcane shield spell that worked. Make it a Cantrip where you spend a Hit Die to roll d8 = damage reduced. This allows the wizard to stay alive during the encounter, but still pay some price in long-term durability for the day.
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9 months ago ::
Sep 10, 2012 - 2:05PM
#57
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A quick point. People should probably stop thinking in terms of level 1 and 2 only. Sure they are super squishy then, but the wizard eventually, if it's anything like 1e 2e or 3e, will get spells that DRASTICALLY increase their survivability. Stoneskin, Mirror Image,...FLY! Just to name a couple  This has been the pattern in the past. I am leaving 4e out intentionally because it was the 4e Wizard was drastically different
My two copper.
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9 months ago ::
Sep 10, 2012 - 2:21PM
#58
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Date Joined:
Oct 25, 2007
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I am leaving 4e out intentionally because it was the 4e Wizard was drastically different
I want to re-include the 4e wizard, though, because if 4e did something right, was to make wizard players feel that their character was an adventurer as well, capable of going into action without fear of being one-shotted or running out of spells that would leave him defenseless. I call it the Gandalf/Rincewind dichotomy
Whereas a 4E wizard could brave going into close range to let loose a couple of Thunder Waves (an at-will spell) before seeking a less exposed position, the 3.x/Next wizard will more likely spend all available resources to get away and avoid being hurt/killed (because Thunder Wave is now 1st-level, and thus with very limited castings).
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9 months ago ::
Sep 10, 2012 - 3:04PM
#59
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I am leaving 4e out intentionally because it was the 4e Wizard was drastically different
I want to re-include the 4e wizard, though, because if 4e did something right, was to make wizard players feel that their character was an adventurer as well, capable of going into action without fear of being one-shotted or running out of spells that would leave him defenseless. I call it the Gandalf/Rincewind dichotomy
Whereas a 4E wizard could brave going into close range to let loose a couple of Thunder Waves (an at-will spell) before seeking a less exposed position, the 3.x/Next wizard will more likely spend all available resources to get away and avoid being hurt/killed (because Thunder Wave is now 1st-level, and thus with very limited castings).
While this is true, and I was not saying the 4e wizard was bad, it just does not seem to be their design this time around.
My two copper.
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9 months ago ::
Sep 10, 2012 - 3:09PM
#60
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Date Joined:
Jul 15, 2008
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It is a good distinction there, Coyotzin. I enjoyed the 4E differences from the past myself. The usefulness of all classes throughout.
However, I don't think that necessarily making Gandalf the Barbarian is the only solution.
Next is on the right track, in my mind, of finding a middle point that works for me and my players.
1st) Make sure Wizards have something to do all the time. Useful Cantrips did this for us. Shocking Grasp, Ray of Frost, Magic Missile.... now offer real round-to-round usefulness to a character that's supposed to be capable of doing magic regularly.
2nd) Make sure Fighters aren't just swinging a weapon, boringly, all the time. Again, Expertise Dice looks like a great feature. Fighting Styles give a theme to the class. More to come I expect to keep them interesting and more than just roll-to-hit.
3rd) Make sure all classes aren't cookie cutter. 4E failed there. Honestly, other than a couple of minor things (Mark/Aura and Healing), everyone was doing the same thing (potentially), just with different fluff. Next has gone back to where each class feels dinstict, but without sacrificing what made 4E great, and that was giving all classes something of interest to do.
4th) Bring back the element of danger to combat without having to use heavy laden rules to create it. 4E has wonderful effects, movement rules, ongoing, etc., to take seeming hearty characters and put them at risk. It worked great... but required a lot of effort to do so. What was the bottom line? DMs and Players enjoy the process of feeling at risk for death that they overcome again and again. How can they do this without having to put in 40 pages of combat rules and effects to learn by heart and adjudicate? Get to the bottom line. Make characters feel frail enough so that combat feels like a challenge and injuries something to be feared.
So far, I think they are doing okay there, too. Some disagree (obviously)... some feel that there's too much risk. Too easily injured. They want double or more hit points. That's fine. If that's what works, great. I just want to give my players a dynamic world full of challenges that seem difficult to overcome, and then let them prove to the universe why they are heroes. If they are too frail, they'll fail (so far, that's not the case with Next). If they are too hardy, then victory is hollow because there was never any risk.
I like where it's at now (if anything, I think Players are a bit on the having-it-too-easy-side), but Next has a LOT of expanding to go through... more rules and tweaks that will all effect challenge and risk... so until I see what's the next phase is, I can't say any particular fixed point for something so influential as HPs is right yet.
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