|
10 months ago ::
Aug 27, 2012 - 1:23PM
#31
|
Date Joined:
Jul 15, 2008
|
And part of it still comes down to awareness for me.
Why are creatures in combat aware of everything else that's going on in combat? Clever or not, kobolds, orcs, or goblins don't seem to miss a single detail in the chaos of combat.
Five people, two very visible, charge into a large chamber unexpectedly. Screams and squeals, frantic movement, bad lighting, someone charging at me with an axe, man he's big! Grab my weapon, worry about survival... oh wait, what's that back there, 30 feet away, maybe half visible in those shadows? Did I see that human grab a pinch of sand from a pouch? Hey, behind me, two of my pals just fell asleep soon after. Hm. He's a wizard. I've been trained to recognize this. Not much armor on him, looks a bit soft under all that adventuring gear and cloak. Wizards are always the weakest, I know this. Sure, he's much bigger than the halfing and more phyisically impossing that the elf, but... he's a wizard. Now, how can a plan out a circuitous route towards him so I don't get attacked by anything on the way?
|
|
|
|
10 months ago ::
Aug 27, 2012 - 1:34PM
#32
|
Date Joined:
Apr 29, 2010
|
Wolves do not find the elk with the biggest horns and attack it. They attack the slowest and weakest. Often it's the young or old who can't defend themeselves.
What do the wolves do when a group of elk barge into their den and start slaughtering them? Attack the one that came in first, probably.
|
|
|
|
10 months ago ::
Aug 27, 2012 - 1:36PM
#33
|
Date Joined:
Apr 29, 2010
|
And part of it still comes down to awareness for me.
Why are creatures in combat aware of everything else that's going on in combat? Clever or not, kobolds, orcs, or goblins don't seem to miss a single detail in the chaos of combat.
Five people, two very visible, charge into a large chamber unexpectedly. Screams and squeals, frantic movement, bad lighting, someone charging at me with an axe, man he's big! Grab my weapon, worry about survival... oh wait, what's that back there, 30 feet away, maybe half visible in those shadows? Did I see that human grab a pinch of sand from a pouch? Hey, behind me, two of my pals just fell asleep soon after. Hm. He's a wizard. I've been trained to recognize this. Not much armor on him, looks a bit soft under all that adventuring gear and cloak. Wizards are always the weakest, I know this. Sure, he's much bigger than the halfing and more phyisically impossing that the elf, but... he's a wizard. Now, how can a plan out a circuitous route towards him so I don't get attacked by anything on the way?
Seems legit!
|
|
|
|
10 months ago ::
Aug 27, 2012 - 1:42PM
#34
|
Date Joined:
Jul 15, 2008
|
Seems legit!
Don't you have elk to slay or run away from or something? 
|
|
|
|
10 months ago ::
Aug 27, 2012 - 2:30PM
#35
|
|
|
And part of it still comes down to awareness for me.
Why are creatures in combat aware of everything else that's going on in combat? Clever or not, kobolds, orcs, or goblins don't seem to miss a single detail in the chaos of combat.
Five people, two very visible, charge into a large chamber unexpectedly. Screams and squeals, frantic movement, bad lighting, someone charging at me with an axe, man he's big! Grab my weapon, worry about survival... oh wait, what's that back there, 30 feet away, maybe half visible in those shadows? Did I see that human grab a pinch of sand from a pouch? Hey, behind me, two of my pals just fell asleep soon after. Hm. He's a wizard. I've been trained to recognize this. Not much armor on him, looks a bit soft under all that adventuring gear and cloak. Wizards are always the weakest, I know this. Sure, he's much bigger than the halfing and more phyisically impossing that the elf, but... he's a wizard. Now, how can a plan out a circuitous route towards him so I don't get attacked by anything on the way?
This I like!
Plus a good guitar solo on the backround
Equals memorable raid!
|
|
|
|
9 months ago ::
Aug 28, 2012 - 11:08AM
#36
|
Date Joined:
Dec 21, 2011
|
I've been struggling with the hit point at first level issue for the past week. One moment I like giving more, another moment I like keeping hit points low.
The hit point issue is something that can be handled by each DM. I think the core has to keep the hit points low for PCs because it is always easier to add than take away. In addition, since the attack progression for monsters will be flatter than last edition, as the PCs gain in levels, monster attacks will not scale as wildly as in the past, so PCs will be safer, and they will be able to adventure more before taking the longer rest.
Also, with the advent of Combat Superiority, hit points should be kept lower because each fighter has the option, every round, to parry an attack that hits, and the protectors can parry an attack that hits an adjacent ally. In our playtest, this ability saved hit points very often.
DMs and players will have to adjust to lower PC hit points...WoTC will have to provide better monster estimates for xp/challenge level, and advice for running encounters. DMs should be wary of mobing PCs. Players should be encouraged to use ranged weapons and move to cover after attacking. Players should be encouraged to set up defensible positions to protect the softer targets. Players of fighters should roleplay in combat to try to draw enemy fire away from weaker targets.
I do think that monsters should hit more often because the fighters (AC 16 and above) weren't really challenged very much in my playtest. By adding +2 to all monsters, the monsters will hit 10% more, which may start to get through the heavily armored PCs. I actually re-rolled attacks in the 6 encounters that I playtested on Saturday, and with a +2 for monster to hit scores, I was able to damage the AC 17 fighter, and the AC 15 fighter 1 more time each over the course of 6 encounters. The rogue was also hit 1 time extra, and that knocked him to -2 hp, but he could be easily saved by the cleric, or another pc with a healing potion. With the extra +10% for monsters to hit, by the end of the 6 encounters, every PC had to use his healing hit die. The cleric had no more spells left, and he used his channel divinity power to heal, so he was out of that too. I like those results.
|
|
|
|
9 months ago ::
Aug 28, 2012 - 12:54PM
#37
|
Date Joined:
Apr 14, 2004
|
@edwin_su & Thraxiss: That's great, but it won't be enough... trust me. Yes, the Wizard suddenly isn't getting 1-shot at level 1. Great. But not good enough. First, Wizards aren't getting attacked once by DMs who consider them Priority #1... they are getting full formation alpha struck. 10 Kobolds who all recognize him for what he is, take turns until he's not just dying, but dead (can't let that Cleric get him back to do damage). If he gets hit half the time for average damage, that's about 17 damage. He needs to survive that.
I blame the focus fire alpha strike more so on cleric healing. I for one, think that when you get knocked out, you should be out of the combat, for exactly the reason you mention.
It's generally okay for a PC to drop, but it's not okay for the PC to die.
If dropped characters are still considered valid targets (because of combat healing), that's a problem if you ask me, because the optimal NPC tactic generally becomes to work at straight up killing off PCs. I think it's much better ot just set it up where a dropped PC can't be brought back to combat. You can heal him, but he won't regain consciousness until after a short rest. That way, there's no longer a strategic need to outright kill a PC and its tactically more efficient to choose another target.
For us, we don't attack people that are KO'd on the ground, but once heal and moving around they are free game even if they haven't taken an action/gotten up. And for us, the wizard never went down because the bad guys thought he was the biggest threat but because he was the easiest target (even in cover).
Unlike Pantelos who thinks like this ' There, if the fighter decapitates half of their family while the robe guy stands in the back dodging and keeping low, guess who they will focus on!' I look at it from a more primal pack mentality. You have a bunch of lions/wolves going after wildebeasts/elk and they are targeting the weakest one. Even if one gets attacked by the biggest bull the other in the pack are still going off the get the weakest target. Ganging up on the strongest foe is never a good idea unless you think you can take him out quick. Even dumb kobolds know shiney metal armor and shield harder to get through than fluffy robes and when dress wearing guy goes down, that's one less person to help tough shiney metal guy. It's also a smart more for anyone if a leadership role to do this also when they have a 'half dead and they run' rule. KOing the clothie quick means that you can lose 2 more of your troops before they run.
So why is the wizard holding a book?
He doesn't need one to cast his spells. He needs it safe and secure for studying his spells out of, In fact if he doesn't plan on changing up his spells during an adventure he can leave it safe and sound in a chest in his room at the inn.
As far as I can see there are no arcane implements in the play test.
All I can really say is if you play a wizard in a game where you spend a lot of time dead, dying, or unconcious with out provoking these attacks then you're playing with a jerk.
Or one that thinks monsters should use basic tactics and actually fight like they want to survive. You know, what you seem to think is being a jerk...
|
|
|
|
9 months ago ::
Aug 28, 2012 - 2:27PM
#38
|
Date Joined:
Feb 10, 2007
|
Or one that thinks monsters should use basic tactics and actually fight like they want to survive. You know, what you seem to think is being a jerk...
So here's the thing. If you're home is being invaded by a mob swinging axes and your family and friends are beind murdered by some massive monster you are not going to say well at least we can take out the easy to hit nobody in the back. No what you are going to do is try to slow down the ax wielding crazy while the rest of your family and friends try to get away.
You see survival isn't killing the least defended character in a group because then you are leaving yourself open to that single blow that is going to end your short but survival inspired attack on the wrong monster. When the wizard opens up with that burning hands or his sleep spell then maybe they might think about hacking into his unarmored self. (Probably to find to their dismay that he's not as easy to kill as they might have wanted to believe.)
Were I to attempt to play a wizzard in a game where the DM automatically attacks me first just because I'm the easiest to hit or have what appears to be the best chance to do serious harm before I actually do that then he's a jerk and I'm not playing in his game ever again. If the guy hates wizards that bad he should just ban the class and save everyone the hastle.
Koblods and goblins are near morons they can't figure out which shoe goes on which foot let alone determine that someone is a wizard, especiaally if they never saw one before. Playing monsters according to their intelligence, in this case, means they are ignorant and unsophisticated. They react by lashing out at those things that hurt them not some shadowy figure hiding behind two or three big ax swinging threats to their survival and that of their clan.
But I guess I'm wasting my time trying to get this point across. So I suggest you keep plaing with your jerk DM or continue to be that DM if you feel the need.
|
|
|
|
9 months ago ::
Aug 28, 2012 - 3:16PM
#39
|
Date Joined:
Aug 28, 2012
|
My thought is each race has x hp just for being alive, then add hp for character class, then any toughness/survival type hp.... makes sense to anyone but me? The hp based off of con stat? Used in some games but then if p layers use it them monsters use it too what would be better system? Remember when you could have 1 hp if you rolled bad and had no con bonus? Max hp at 1st level is a good start.
|
|
|
|
9 months ago ::
Aug 28, 2012 - 5:33PM
#40
|
Date Joined:
Jul 15, 2008
|
So here's the thing. If you're home is being invaded by a mob swinging axes and your family and friends are beind murdered by some massive monster you are not going to say well at least we can take out the easy to hit nobody in the back.
I am going to have to side with Tlantl on this one, but that's because my DMing techniques are very similar to his.
In the end, it's a question of what a DM thinks equates to smart creature play. Some DMs, from what I have seen, literally see no other avenue of smart, clever, or in-character play for monsters than "kill the weakest." Some DMs consider roleplay, unpredictable actions, etc., is smart creature play.
So while you might think having them kill to protect is valid, I might think roleplaying orcs as hating dwarves, and someone else might have orcs rage making them swing-at-the-closest-in-blind-fury, for a person who's main qualifying question to any enemy action is "what will do the most DPS" (in other words, what can they hit easiest for the most damage), the only answer is attack the most vulnerable target.
A difference in style in all cases that is valid for that particular DM but sometimes hard for others to understand.
|
|
|
