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10 months ago ::
Aug 23, 2012 - 2:48PM
#31
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Date Joined:
Jan 29, 2005
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So the fighter gets a tiny bit of versatility opposed to the major versatility the Warlock gets by having a large number of spells...
Fair enough. I fully expect the CS to get a bit of a buff come the next update.
Magic Dual Color Test
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10 months ago ::
Aug 23, 2012 - 3:35PM
#32
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Date Joined:
May 19, 2012
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um, guys, where is the numbers that say "sorcerer does half the melee damage of a fighter, and half the magic damage of a wizard"? i built a sorcerer with the playtest and before he casts any spells he gets:
attack:d20+5 Damage: d10+2 (bastard sword)
the prebuilt fighter has:
attack:d20+6 Damage: d10+3 (battleaxe)
asuming he uses his CS, that's still only an extra d6 of damage. how does 2d10+4=1d10+1d6+3?
and on Ray of Frost my sorcerer gets:
attack:d20+6 Damage: d6+3
the prebuilt wizard doesn't have Ray of Frost, but if he had that instead of magic missile he'd have:
attack:d20+6 Damage: d6+3
so in this case the sorcerer is on par with the wizard's damage dealing capabilities.
mind you, all the attacks i've mentioned require the character's only action that round, so calculating DPR is nitpicking what is already clear: the sorcerer is comparable to each of them, and even though he falls behind the fighter a little, it's not a lost cause, and he GETS BETTER as the day goes on.
from an RP standpoint i absolutely love the new sorcerer, and from a Mechanics standpoint he is comparable in everything he does. also i like the idea that as the day goes on his strength slowly transfers from the magic power to melee power, allowing the shift in control to be more evident. i mean, it's one thing to say "i'm now becoming more arogant and dragonlike" and another for the character's fighting style to visibly change as the day goes on.
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10 months ago ::
Aug 23, 2012 - 5:40PM
#33
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Date Joined:
Sep 26, 2007
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um, guys, where is the numbers that say "sorcerer does half the melee damage of a fighter, and half the magic damage of a wizard"? i built a sorcerer with the playtest and before he casts any spells he gets:
attack:d20+5 Damage: d10+2 (bastard sword)
the prebuilt fighter has:
attack:d20+6 Damage: d10+3 (battleaxe)
asuming he uses his CS, that's still only an extra d6 of damage. how does 2d10+4=1d10+1d6+3?
and on Ray of Frost my sorcerer gets:
attack:d20+6 Damage: d6+3
the prebuilt wizard doesn't have Ray of Frost, but if he had that instead of magic missile he'd have:
attack:d20+6 Damage: d6+3
so in this case the sorcerer is on par with the wizard's damage dealing capabilities.
mind you, all the attacks i've mentioned require the character's only action that round, so calculating DPR is nitpicking what is already clear: the sorcerer is comparable to each of them, and even though he falls behind the fighter a little, it's not a lost cause, and he GETS BETTER as the day goes on.
from an RP standpoint i absolutely love the new sorcerer, and from a Mechanics standpoint he is comparable in everything he does. also i like the idea that as the day goes on his strength slowly transfers from the magic power to melee power, allowing the shift in control to be more evident. i mean, it's one thing to say "i'm now becoming more arogant and dragonlike" and another for the character's fighting style to visibly change as the day goes on.
Heres the thing the only thing a weapon gives you is +1 to hit don't get me wrong that's a big deal but it's just not worth splitting your stats for. Even when you get your +2 damage it's a trap making the entire dragon origin basically a heavy armored tougher weaker wizard. shocking grasp does the same average damage as a greatsword which your not actually proficient in even after the +2 for claws while taking away reactions and giving you a better AC. Draconic Strength actually takes willpower to do less damage. The whole class looks interesting I love the Idea but the design is flawed We Have trap melee and trap powers along with weaker spell casting I'm trying to figure out what you could do to make the melee Dragon sorc viable but you have to be cautious of stepping on the fighters toes. Honestly +2 to hit would put him above fighter attack bonus at first level and a d6 to damage has him dealing the same damage. one thing that could help is going back to 1.5x str damage on 2 handers but then you have to revisit 2 weapon fighting, and shields
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10 months ago ::
Aug 23, 2012 - 5:55PM
#34
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Date Joined:
May 24, 2012
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I'm on the side that says the current Sorc is really weak. The class features are pretty cool, but what I'm seeing is that once the party hits about 7-9th level, the Sorcerer's going to fall off as useless. He has no increase in either is Attack bonuses OR his spell save DCs, whereas the Fighter and Wizard have massive ones. His spellcasting is all about battle spells, but with no save DCs for his AoE spells, and no Magic Attack Bonus for his rays and touch spells, his main casting focus doesn't work.
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10 months ago ::
Aug 23, 2012 - 6:25PM
#35
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Date Joined:
Jan 15, 2009
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Very cool but seems the numbers arent quite there ... man thats a bit annoying. I do also want BIG Blades.... 
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10 months ago ::
Aug 23, 2012 - 6:26PM
#36
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Date Joined:
Jul 31, 2007
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I'm not saying you're wrong. But, I am curious why I'm hearing this about the sorcerer, but not the cleric, who has the exact same attack bonus and saving throw progression as the sorcerer. Hell, the Sorcerer is actually better off, because the dragon heritage gives him a +1 to attack rolls with weapons.
So, is the war cleric weak as well?
I think it's too early to say that the sorcerer's attack bonus or save DC never goes up. Bounded Accuracy means that the curve is a lot flatter than it was in 3E, and five levels may not be enough to see that rise.
I do think that accuracy needs to be more flat across the board. There's really no reason for the Fighter to have that much of an accuracy bonus over the sorcerer when the Fighter's going to be able to do higher damage or add some sort of effect on every attack. This is one of the reasons I hated the BAB in 3E.
The Save DC difference between the Sorcerer and Wizard seems problematic, too, at this phase. But, it could be that the wizard will have more baseline attack bonuses and save DCs, while the tradition modifies those. I could also see the Sorcerer having a sharper curve after level 5, as the character becomes more and more comfortable with the innate use of magic. Practice makes perfect, and all that.
I'm honestly not bothered by discrepancies that may or may not exist above level 5 right now. That's not part of the test. I'll wait for the phase where we get levels 6-10, and then I'll start worrying about that. I do believe that the developers need to be made aware that the possibility for problems exists, of course, but I don't think an entire class needs to be written off (as some are doing) because its first iteration in the playtest wasn't balanced well.
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10 months ago ::
Aug 23, 2012 - 6:38PM
#37
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Date Joined:
Jan 15, 2009
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I see a mixed blaster striker with.. not quite enough to do either ok. Its still my favorite, with fighter coming in second... ofcourse and this is early so hell no would I "write it off" and it will be the one I am building for our slow to begin play test ;p
A Cleric is a different role I suppose and isnt being viewed the same.
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10 months ago ::
Aug 23, 2012 - 8:36PM
#38
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Date Joined:
May 19, 2012
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um, guys, where is the numbers that say "sorcerer does half the melee damage of a fighter, and half the magic damage of a wizard"? i built a sorcerer with the playtest and before he casts any spells he gets:
attack:d20+5 Damage: d10+2 (bastard sword)
the prebuilt fighter has:
attack:d20+6 Damage: d10+3 (battleaxe)
asuming he uses his CS, that's still only an extra d6 of damage. how does 2d10+4=1d10+1d6+3?
and on Ray of Frost my sorcerer gets:
attack:d20+6 Damage: d6+3
the prebuilt wizard doesn't have Ray of Frost, but if he had that instead of magic missile he'd have:
attack:d20+6 Damage: d6+3
so in this case the sorcerer is on par with the wizard's damage dealing capabilities.
mind you, all the attacks i've mentioned require the character's only action that round, so calculating DPR is nitpicking what is already clear: the sorcerer is comparable to each of them, and even though he falls behind the fighter a little, it's not a lost cause, and he GETS BETTER as the day goes on.
from an RP standpoint i absolutely love the new sorcerer, and from a Mechanics standpoint he is comparable in everything he does. also i like the idea that as the day goes on his strength slowly transfers from the magic power to melee power, allowing the shift in control to be more evident. i mean, it's one thing to say "i'm now becoming more arogant and dragonlike" and another for the character's fighting style to visibly change as the day goes on.
Heres the thing the only thing a weapon gives you is +1 to hit don't get me wrong that's a big deal but it's just not worth splitting your stats for. Even when you get your +2 damage it's a trap making the entire dragon origin basically a heavy armored tougher weaker wizard. shocking grasp does the same average damage as a greatsword which your not actually proficient in even after the +2 for claws while taking away reactions and giving you a better AC. Draconic Strength actually takes willpower to do less damage. The whole class looks interesting I love the Idea but the design is flawed We Have trap melee and trap powers along with weaker spell casting I'm trying to figure out what you could do to make the melee Dragon sorc viable but you have to be cautious of stepping on the fighters toes. Honestly +2 to hit would put him above fighter attack bonus at first level and a d6 to damage has him dealing the same damage. one thing that could help is going back to 1.5x str damage on 2 handers but then you have to revisit 2 weapon fighting, and shields
hmm...i think i see what you mean. if i built this guy so he was almost ok at two skills, then it would prabably look better if he were instead focused into being spectacular at just one. and even with my split skills i am comparable to the fighter, and he doesn't have the options i do, so the guy playing the fighter is going to be giving me dirty looks. on top of all this, i'm no min/maxer, so imagine what a true optimizer could do with it...
but IMO the flaws you've pointed out counteract each other: i'm stepping on the fighter's toes because i can do his job plus other stuff, but at the same time i'm not as good as i could be if i didn't try to do two things at once. in short, i've traded a high return from resources for having options. i'm willing to make that trade, and look foreward to playtesting it to see if they have made the tradeoff balanced enough.
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