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Aug 21, 2012 -- 1:19AM, Novacat wrote:

Yes.

Can you cite a page number for this?

I can't find anything right now but I was under the impression that most bonuses to saves against particular conditions were worded something like "+X to saving throws that include the Y condition," so it generally works like you're saying, but there's no rule that specifically addresses the situation the OP talked about.  In other words, it depends on the wording of the bonus.

But please correct me if I'm wrong. 

Aug 22, 2012 -- 2:43AM, Pentagram wrote:

Aug 21, 2012 -- 9:33PM, RedSiegfried wrote:

Can you cite a page number for this?
...

What do you expect that page to say? That check bonuses that applies to certain condition will be applied to such conditions even if other conditions also holds true? Rather, if you think that bonuses won't be applied unless a chosen condition is the ONLY one existing, you need to cite a page number for that.

If there's a rule for it I would expect it to say something like "if you have a bonus to a saving throw against one condition, it applies to all saving throws that include that condition."  I don't see that anywhere, but correct me if I'm wrong.

However, I think that whether or not this is true depends on the wording of the game element that grants the saving throw bonus.  So if it says "+X to saving throws that include the Whatever condition," then yeah, it applies to any saving throw that has Whatever in it.  If it doesn't say that, I don't see where the rules say it does.

My line of thought for this comes from how combined damage types work.  For example, if you resist 10 fire and someone deals 20 fire and thunder damage to you, your resistance doesn't apply because you don't resist both damage types.  I know damage types are not saving throws, but that's where my logic is coming from and I don't see anything in the book that says you get a saving throw bonus against a combined condition if you have a bonus to just one of those conditions.

RC page 228 does say that when two effects are followed by the notation "save ends both," they are treated as a single effect when making saving throws against them.  In that way, I could see how you would treat them the same as a combined damage type, and you'd have to have a bonus to save against both effects and take the lowest bonus.  But that's me going out on a limb, I don't know about that.

But once again, please, correct me if I'm wrong.  AFAIK, the rules are silent on this issue so stating definitively "Yes," or "No," without citing a rule is just making stuff up unless you can cite the RC, or at least an FAQ or something.

Aug 22, 2012 -- 10:57AM, Mand12 wrote:

An effect that a save can end includes one of the following notations: “save ends,” “save ends both,” or “save ends all.” 

When two effects are followed by the notation “save ends both,” they are treated as a single effect when making saving throws against them. For instance, if a creature is “weakened and slowed (save ends both),” the creature makes a single saving throw against those two conditions whenever the time comes for it to make saving throws. Similarly, effects that are followed by the notation “save ends all” are treated as a single effect when saving throws are made against them.

RC 277, if you're curious.

Yeah, but does that mean your bonus to one of those effects applies to the whole save or does that mean that you need to have bonuses against both effects in order for it to apply to the save?  This passage doesn't address bonuses at all, it just says that "save ends both" effects are treated as one effect.  Does treating them as one effect mean that a bonus to saves against one of the conditions applies to both?  If so, where does it say that or why do you think that?  Or, like combined damage works, should it not apply unless you have a bonus against both effects?  If so, where does it say that or why do you think that?

I think people are reading stuff into the rules that just isn't addressed.  And I don't know what the RAI is for this situation.  But if bonuses to saving throws against one condition that is part of a "save ends both" condition are addressed anywhere, please cite the book and page number.

The only analog I can find for this situation is how combined damage types are treated - you have to resist both damage types in order to have resistance, even though it is treated as once instance of damage.  I know damage types are not the same thing as saving throws, though, so of course that's not a real rule, it's just the closes similar situation I can find.

Aug 22, 2012 -- 11:09AM, Mand12 wrote:

Are you dazed?  Y/N

It works like all other structures like this work.  If you have a bonus to fire damage rolls, and the power has the fire keyword, then it gets the bonus.  It doesn't matter that the power may have the Arcane, Conjuration, and Fear keywords, as well.

Conditions are not keywords.  False analogy, it's not the same thing.  Powers that grant the Dazed condition are not "Dazed powers."   They are whatever keyword powers their keywords give them, and Dazed is not a keyword.

That's why even though I thought it might work similar to damage resistance vs. combined damage types, that's probably not right and that's not a good analogy either.