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It would be of little use to this build, but I want to point out there's also a 4th level spell, Lingering Chorus (CM) that sustains your music for you and explicitly allows you to start a new one. Very useful for straight/caster bards.
With its fixed range it could theoretically be Persisted. 

Aug 27, 2012 -- 10:58AM, Tr0users wrote:

So it occurs to me that it might be a good idea if my character was able to accurately assess opponents, how strong they are and what their strengths and weaknesses are (enemies with high AC, but low damage attacks probably don't require Dragonfire to be used against them, and those with low AC and high damage attacks can probably be sorted out easily enough without Inspire Courage, etc.), so I'm wondering which knowledge skills/spells/gear would likely be most relevent for finding this sort of information out. Does anyone have any thoughts?

Generally speaking, there's no "best" knowledge skill for this, and there are no spells or gear which give exact numbers (I think there's a feat or two which does this, though - PHB2, but I don't know exactly). You can also make those knowledge checks convert into damage potential with the Knowledge Devotion feat, but this won't be worth it for you due to its action cost.

If you want to get a LOT of bang for your buck, though, consider the Bardic Knack special ability (also PHB2) and the Collector of Stories skill trick (Complete Scoundrel). The trick's only once per encounter, but it's cheap for you (two skill points). The Knack ability replaces Bardic Knowledge with... it's hard to explain without giving everything away, but let's just say it lets you invest just one skill point in each Knowledge skill and gives you a substantially larger return on your investment. It rewards more Bard levels than non-Bard levels, but even a handful of them + Collector of Stories (and knowing which skill relates to which creature type, which is a metagame thing) can give you a good chance of IDing things for a surprisingly small skill point investment.

I do also want to check, though, if I go for the 'song x' during round 1, then 'song y' during round 2, I can apply all of my boosts from Inspirational Boost and Badge of Valor to both, yes? Is there a specific order that I should activate things in? I gather that it's Inspirational Boost, then 'song x' first, but I'm hazy on what the optimal order is after that.

Here's a flowchart in text form. To have the full options available, you'll need to be in a White Raven stance. This is the main reason you'll probably be using Leading the Charge or Tactics of the Wolf all the time; those stances are essentially infinite-duration party-wide buffs set up in advance.

• If you're hosed and need to fight right away, you can use Song of the White Raven to sing Song X and start fighting on round 1, then use Song of the White Raven to sing Song Y and keep fighting on round 2. Neither effect will be as powerful as a dedicated buff round (though they'll still be stronger than usual due to Song of the Heart + the eventual Vest of Legends you'll be convincing your team to subsidize), but sometimes you'll need to start fighting immediately.
• If you can afford one buff round or only need one song, the order is Inspirational Boost + Song, then the Badge + fighting on your second round.
• If you want two songs, it's Inspirational Boost + Song X on round 1, but how you follow that depends on your circumstance.
• If you need Song X to be your stronger effect and just want Song Y as a tagalong, you use the Badge + second song. You can use the badge again on the following round if you want both songs to be amazing, but your badge is really limited.
• If you need Song Y to be your stronger effect, or you're conserving Badge charges (it's only 3/day!), you use Inspirational Boost + Song Y.
• If you need two songs but cannot afford the second buff round, you use Song of the White Raven to sing Song Y as a swift instead, then start fighting. (You can't do this if you aren't in a White Raven stance, and you can't do it with any song other than Inspire Courage or Dragonfire.) If your swift action is free, you can use the Badge on the third round to buff up Song Y, but only consider this on really long battles.

In all cases, if you don't particularly need Song X to be insanely strong, of if you need your swift for other reasons (stances, for instance), you can forgo the initial Inspirational Boost and follow the routines as written. These routines also leave your move action open in the first round, which is a good thing as you're almost never in position on round 1.

All of this assumes you have a LOT of Inspirational Boosts available - I'd suggest a wand (chamber it into your shield and it's always available; if you aren't using a shield, chamber it into your weapon. If you aren't using a shield AND you aren't the sort to keep a weapon drawn, either buy a Least Augment Crystal of Return (MIC; basically gives you Quick Draw for the weapon) or buy a gauntlet (always in your hand) and chamber that.). This also assumes you're always in the right stance, and that stance must be from White Raven to use the last option for two songs. Note that Song X in the two-song scenario will last for five rounds after you start singing, while you can keep Song Y going indefinitely; if you suspect you'll be digging in for the long haul, Song Y should be the bigger effect, but for quicker encounters (6 rounds or less), making Song X the stronger effect will have a bigger influence on the battle (since it'll be online during round 1 while Song Y will not).

Things get more complex with a harmonizing weapon (MIC); it LOOKS like it should help with dual-singing, but since you can't stop it from picking up a performance, it actually doesn't help with that (it always picks up a performance the round after you start singing it, and it keeps singing for 10 rounds - so with Song X on round 1, it sings Song X on rounds 2-11. But if you do Song X on round 1, then Song Y on round 2, it'll sing Song Y from round 3-12). What this DOES do is leave your voice free for spellcasting while it keeps your most recent song going for a full minute, instead of the 5 rounds it usually would last. It doesn't help your first song at all. Still, this weapon might help you avoid learning Lingering Song if you have really long fights. It's still no substitute for War Chanter, but then again, few things are.

I must admit that I've been somewhat concerned about the fact that this build seems to require at least reasonably good scores in all abilities other than Wisdom. All I can really think is that I'll have to begin with my high scores in abilities relevant to the bard at early levels, and hopefully amass enough wealth to buy equipment that can boost the others as they become more relevent. The DM I usually play with decides ability scores with dice rolls, so who knows, maybe I'll get some lucky rolls. It could happen...

Even without that, you really don't need much. You can get by with Charisma 13 - you aren't a primary spellcaster and aren't going beyond 3rd level spells. (Obviously 14 is much better for the modifier, but if you're stuck...). Likewise, Warblade rewards Intelligence, but does not require Intelligence; you can get by again without too much here (especially with Bardic Knack). Similarly, warblade has d12 HD, and you will probably be out of combat range on round 1, so you don't need quite as much Constitution as you might think you would otherwise (14 is probably enough - normally this is the minimum I'd suggest for warriors, but this playstyle isn't quite as frontline-heavy due to its buff round.) Dexterity needs to be adequate, yes, and there's few ways around that, especially if you want to use a shield and cast spells from low levels (you should consider the shield anyway, as wands don't suffer ASF%, and the extra wand chamber can help. Just use a buckler or similar until you can afford special materials or Twilight or similar.) Strength, oddly, also doesn't need to be that high - your songs can more than compensate for a low Strength, and by the time your melee maneuvers kick in, your full base attack will cover the rest.

So while you need to be competent in all areas except Wisdom, you don't actually need to be exceptional in any of them. I'd prioritize Dexterity and Constitution over the others (Dex more if you're starting at a high level, Con more if you're starting at a low level), get a 13+ in Charisma, plop anything left over into Strength and Intelligence (Intelligence over Strength (skills, Knowledge checks, warblade synergy) in almost any circumstance; you can probably manage with just a 12 Strength!) and Wisdom gets the scraps.

 Even the elite array can do this: 10/14/15/12/8/13 should do the trick. You'll be using bard ranged weapons and magic for the first few levels until you can get your Inspire gear together. At 4th you probably pump Charisma (bonus spells help bards a lot, and a 14 gets you a bonus 2nd level spell slot as soon as that's available to the bard), and at 8th you pump Constitution (as by then you've got your Inspire gear together to cover for Strength, and you'll start to switch to a frontliner, and you'll have enough HD that the impact will be noticable). From then on out it's up to you.

EDIT: Omen of Peace points out correctly that this is not going to cut it for Words of Creation; if you take this ability score array you will probably have to do without Words (it is not an easy feat to get!). However, you can still pull off Words with the elite array! 10/12/13/15/8/14, putting your 4th or 8th level boost to Charisma (pick which one works best for you; you might want to amplify your Constitution or Intelligence first if you were planning on delaying Words until 9th anyway), does the trick. You'll be slightly more fragile during the early levels, but not terribly so; this just relegates you slightly more to the caster / support bard role early on. 

Note that both of these suggestions force you to work with the elite array; if you get better results, you can take this and make it rule. 

I like the Bardic Knack and Collector of Stories ideas a lot - I'm using those! I found one other feat in PHBII that lets you know the HP of adjacent opponents, but it has a prerequisite feat and it's not really the effect I want, anyway. Bardic Knack, Sense Motive and CoS look as though they should provide the information I'll need, though. Thanks!

And thanks for the turn-by-turn breakdowns - they've made a number of things clearer. For instance, I wasn't sure exactly how Inspirational Boost and Badge of Valor were going to interact (whether they were going to be able to boost effects from both songs, or just one). I have a thought that might allow them to boost both songs without having to take five levels in War Chanter or two levels in Seeker of the Song. The Song and Silence book has some variation rules for some of the string instruments (fiddle, lute and lap-harp, I believe), which allow two bardic musics to be played simultaneously. From what I understand they'll allow a second Bardic Music effect to be initiated whilst one is underway, so I wouldn't be able to begin both simultaneously with the same action, but I would, I think, definitely be able to get the boost from the badge onto both, and I can probably get the boost from Inspirational Boost (yes, by the way, I shall be using wands for Inspirational Boost and Creaking Cacophony) onto both as well. Turn 1: Inspirational Boost -> song x. Turn 2: Maintain song x (so Inspirational Boost's effect doesn't end) and begin song y -> Badge of Valor. Both boosts to both songs, am I right? How would a Harmonizing weapon interact with that? If my character was playing two songs together, would the weapon carry on both, or just the second?

Thanks once again, Tempest, for the advice concerning ability scores. That makes the build seem a whole lot more realistic than I was beginning to think it was. I'll be sure to follow it closely!

Aug 27, 2012 -- 4:27PM, Tr0users wrote:

I like the Bardic Knack and Collector of Stories ideas a lot - I'm using those! I found one other feat in PHBII that lets you know the HP of adjacent opponents, but it has a prerequisite feat and it's not really the effect I want, anyway. Bardic Knack, Sense Motive and CoS look as though they should provide the information I'll need, though. Thanks!

That was the feat I was thinking of, and yes, it's not all that worthwhile. Sense Motive also isn't all that hot since all it will tell you is HD, which doesn't tell you anything about their AC nor their HP.

Generally speaking, I would prioritize Inspire Courage over Dragonfire, especially if you have warrior-types with Power Attack on the team. Bonus damage means nothing if your attacks don't hit, and thanks to Song of the Heart, even without any other support your basic Dragonfire effect is still adding at least greatsword damage onto each hit. Meanwhile, let's assume you mismatched it - you used Inspire Courage against low-AC critters with high HP, or Dragonfire against unhittable foes with only moderate HP. The latter is going to be a waste; you'll have to rely on good rolls for it to count (though it will probably end the battle much quicker once those rolls happen). The former, however, will not be a waste - even if you misjudged your foes, your warriors (who will be quite familiar with the Power Attack game) can simply throttle up their Power Attacks and convert that attack bonus into damage. Most often, this'll be on a 2:1 ratio, so Inspire will add 3 damage per point of bonus if they Power Attack for an amount equal to the bonus - this is almost on par with Dragonfire already. (It's not energy damage, so it can't be Cacophonied to higher levels, but it's a start.) And, if they're really built for it, they can get it much higher than that - i.e. through Ubercharging, which also benefits from your Leading the Charge stance.

Nutshell: If your allies have Power Attack, you should probably be amping up Inspire over Dragonfire even against easy-to-hit foes. I'd amp up Dragonfire for significant encounters, but only after you've already put up your best Inspire.

And thanks for the turn-by-turn breakdowns - they've made a number of things clearer. For instance, I wasn't sure exactly how Inspirational Boost and Badge of Valor were going to interact (whether they were going to be able to boost effects from both songs, or just one).

The badge can only be used three times per day, so keep that in mind. You don't want to be without it when it matters. (You also don't want to finish the day off with any charges left in it, though.)

Another point: If you assemble the rest of the set, you can get some pretty decent effects as a set bonus. It's designed for marshals, but will work just fine with bards.

I have a thought that might allow them to boost both songs without having to take five levels in War Chanter or two levels in Seeker of the Song. The Song and Silence book has some variation rules for some of the string instruments (fiddle, lute and lap-harp, I believe), which allow two bardic musics to be played simultaneously. From what I understand they'll allow a second Bardic Music effect to be initiated whilst one is underway, so I wouldn't be able to begin both simultaneously with the same action, but I would, I think, definitely be able to get the boost from the badge onto both, and I can probably get the boost from Inspirational Boost (yes, by the way, I shall be using wands for Inspirational Boost and Creaking Cacophony) onto both as well. Turn 1: Inspirational Boost -> song x. Turn 2: Maintain song x (so Inspirational Boost's effect doesn't end) and begin song y -> Badge of Valor. Both boosts to both songs, am I right?

Given how those instruments were updated (Complete Adventurer) and no longer allow dual-singing on their own, no, you can't do this. Even if you could, Inspirational Boost only applies to songs started in the round you start singing (...I think. AFB.), and the Badge isn't entirely clear but seems to apply to only one song per use.

How would a Harmonizing weapon interact with that? If my character was playing two songs together, would the weapon carry on both, or just the second?

Harmonizing weapons have only one feature: If you start singing a song, they pick it up on the following round. There are three ways this could work with dual-singing.

1) If you sing two songs on two separate rounds (as above, and in most of my buff routines), then the Harmonizing sword will pick up the first song on the second round, but switch to the second song from the third round onward.
2) If you sing two songs on the same round, the harmonizing weapon should pick up whichever song you sung second (the first song will linger, as normal, but won't be sustained by the sword.)
3) If you're a War Chanter and sing two songs at once, it's not clear what the harmonizing sword would do; easiest way to do it is to either run both songs at once, or to pick one song to sustain. It's clear the harmonizing sword wasn't written with this in mind, so you'll have to patch it.

They're good weapons, but they're no substitute for War Chanter or Lingering Song, and they kind of muck around with dual-singing builds that don't use war chanter.

Thanks once again, Tempest, for the advice concerning ability scores. That makes the build seem a whole lot more realistic than I was beginning to think it was. I'll be sure to follow it closely!

I edited that in light of Omen of Peace's suggestion - he's right that Words won't work with the array I gave, but I supplied an alternative that will work with Words. It's also not that bad of an array in its own right, but you'll be less of a warrior and more of a minstrel to start.

One thing to note is that the temptation to round out those 15s to 16s at higher levels is quite high... but if you're just interested in Words, and you aren't being a serious spellcaster or skill-user, you can just leave them at 15 and still be all right. Since you're using Bardic Knack + Collector of Stories, you don't need a serious emphasis on Knowledge skills, and since bards and warblades both get decent skill points to begin with (and you've got a +2 modifier from a 15 Int), you'll be fine on the skill front, especially if you aren't the primary expert on the team. Likewise, if most of your spellcasting comes from wands, your charisma actually doesn't matter at all to your magic - 15 is high enough to use virtually any bardic spell you'd want from a scroll or a wand anyway, and those don't use your ability scores to set the DC or anything. Since you're barely casting from your own slots - and you won't be casting in combat anyway, since you don't have Melodic Casting and your voice is occupied singing - your own spellcasting isn't a primary focus of your character anyway. (You should learn basic out-of-combat support spells, such as divinations, enchantments, and illusions, with a specific focus on those that aren't save-based.) Long story short, try to fight the temptation to boost those scores to a +3 modifier - you won't need them to be any higher!

Both arrays are the 25-pb elite array (4d6 drop lowest's statistical average); if you get better results than this, go to town. But you can do a multi-singer with the elite array without hamstringing yourself. If you get lower, or you find that you wish to be a scrappier fighter rather than a masterful commander, you might have to drop Words to lighten the emphasis on Charisma and Wisdom.

Blast! I guess no double singing for this character then. Ah well, even without boosts from Inspirational Boost and Badge of Valor (heh! Maybe I'll buy two) Dragonfire Inspiration's still going to be able to deal pretty big damage. As Omen said, it's generally best not to be too over-powered, anyway.

I have taken a look at spells and, yes, I agree, no more needs to be done to improve this character's combat stats (apart, possibly, from the defensive ones) and I'll be spending enough time buffing during combats as it is (although Crabwalk is such a temptation), so I'm looking at utility spells that are minimally effected (if at all) by the caster level. I'm wondering how many dice I'll be rolling for non-lethal damage with Words of Creation at the highest level? Will it be 20d4? If so I'll probably look into getting a wand of Refreshment (lvl 3 spell - cures all non-lethal damage). I'm also thinking that Ambient Song (lvl 1 - disguises the sound of Bardic Music); Joyful Noise (lvl 1 - negates magical silence effects within 10 feet), and Surefooted Stride (lvl 2 - allows normal movement through difficult terrain and +2 to climb checks) might be good choices. My other choices will depend upon the rest of the party that I'm with, somewhat, but I have a list of good candidates.

In terms of feats, I think I've pretty much settled on Dragonfire Inspiration (1), Extra Music (1), Song of the Heart (3), Lingering Song (1), Song of the White Raven (9), Exotic Weapon Proficiency (want kusari-gama) (1), Words of Creation (9), Draconic Heritage (assuming the DM will allow me to take this without Sorcerer 1) (1), (with bonus feats - Combat Reflexes, Improved Initiative, Quick Draw). I've tried deciding on an order to take them, and I landed on the order I've written them here, but I'm far from convinced that this is the best way. Do you guys have any more informed opinions of what a good order would be? I've put the earliest level that the character can take each feat at in brackets.

I'm curious: if an opponent draws an attack of opportunity by moving out of a space that my character threatens, and I use it to successfully trip them, then do they remain in the original square, or do they still make it to where they were trying to go? What other actions can they make during the turn? The move action is wasted, and they presumably use another one to stand up (during which I can make a second attack of opportunity), so that leaves them with a 5 foot step and a swift action (assuming they haven't used it in the previous round as an immediate action), yes?