|
9 months ago ::
Oct 08, 2012 - 7:25PM
#211
|
Date Joined:
May 16, 2009
|
Personally, I think that 4th Edition is very good, but is hampered by WOTC. Here is a short and very brief list of actions that turned people away from 4th Edition.
*The release of the character builder, virtual table, and other digital tools was supposed to be not long after the release of 4th edition. WOTC would have been wiser to finish these beforehand, as they are key to attracting modern gamers. Even worse is that they never finished most of these tools, which indicated that WOTC is unreliable in most matters that concern digital tools.
*While publishing PDFs of their books, WOTC decided to reverse direction as a result of piracy. They did this in the worst way possible by revoking the PDFs already being sold by shops, and then canceling the PDFs attached to the digital accounts of shoppers. WOTC was aiming for tighter control of their product by only having shops with physical storefronts being able to sell digital PDFs. This failed due to bad PR, and the fact that physical stores would have less interest in selling PDFs.
*Abandoning the OGL, which had created extremely powerful support from third party publishers. WOTC once again wanted to have tighter control over their brand, but underestimated the importance of having an 'open' process for third parties to produce material for D&D. Worse, they attached a "Poison Pill" clause that would have anyone producing material for 4th Edition to no longer be able to produce any for previous editions. The loss of the OGL is strongly tied to Paizo turning against WOTC.
*Attempting to move their operations in-house, WOTC decided to remove Paizo from developing the material for the Dungeon and Dragon magazines. This removed a source of income from Paizo, and made them turn their eyes from 4th Edition to other pastures. WOTC failed to reproduce the quality that Paizo had, and also shortened the lengths of their magazine releases. Bad combination, as that made the DDInsider service less valuable to subscribers.
*The OGL for v3.5 was open, to the point that Paizo could retrofit that version of D&D into the Pathfinder that we know today. This allowed them to rebel against WOTC, while retaining the wealth of material from 3.5e. Even better, they didn't have to sink much in the way of resources since they took WOTC's property and turned it into their own game. This was a deadly strike against WOTC, especially when combined with the general misfortune and incompentence that has ailed WOTC.
*WOTC's staff constantly changes, which in turn means that WOTC is incapable of sticking with long term plans or having a solid idealogy. This really damages their business decisions, as they tend to backpedal at the wrong times for the wrong reasons.
*The lack of quality videogames that uses the 4th Edition ruleset to good effect. I remember games like Baldur's Gate, Planescape, and Neverwinter Nights 2 introducing me to D&D and keeping me interested in the brand. 4th Edition design was ideal for converting into a genuinely good videogame, but WOTC's constrictive OGL and lackluster licensing had eliminated that possibility. If there was a D&D Tactics on the 3DS and a PC game by Obsidian, it is is entirely possible that WOTC would have had many more players for 4th Edition. Instead, we got half-*** detrius like Daggerdale.
In my opinion, the things that WOTC has going for it right now is the quality of 4th Edition and the Compendium. I am really hoping that some other company develops a D&D-esque game that takes after 4th Edition's principles, as that would lead to a much brighter future for roleplaying games. Here's to some bright team doing a kickstarter to that effect!
"The word Live is Evil spelt backwards."
"Flaws are what make our perfections shine so brightly"
|
|
|
|
9 months ago ::
Oct 08, 2012 - 11:09PM
#212
|
Date Joined:
Apr 22, 2001
|
Everything you said is 100% accurate from where Im standing and I could probobly add additinol points to illustrates some of the failings of WOTC 4th edition not withstanding, but through it all their has always been a general consensus that D&D is great and the fans love it in one form or another. There are people who play 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th editions all over the world and they still love it. That is a powerful ally and a very easy to take advantage situation for WOTC and also one of its greatest missed oppertunities. Paizo for example is beating the pants off Wizards in the PR department and customer loyalty for one reason and one reason only, WTOC ceased to produce 3rd edition material, which was foolish. Just as foolish as abandoning 2nd edition was when 3rd edition was released. This is a monumental mistake made by money counters, not people who have a connection to their fans.
No matter how you slice it you can't "convert" the entire community and you'll be lucky if you can get half the people to even look at the new version of a PnP RPG let alone buy it. Understanding that the popularity of a role-playing system never dies and most fans do not "change their mind" is the first step to understanding your customer. Most players cherish their books (whatever edition that may be), they cherish the game and it represent one if not THE favorite hobby for them. When a publisher abadons an edition entirely and looks back on it like it was a mistake its really mud in the eye of the community.
The Franchises primary mishandling has been the idea that "the current edition" is the one we support and love, everything else is just history. This has always been a mistake and I don't understand why game makers have such a hard time understanding this given so many hard lessons learned. Wizards has made this mistake twice now (2nd to 3rd and 3rd to 4th).
The good news at least if you don't dig to deep to reveal it as otherwise it appears at least through their actions that WOTC has come to understand the love and appriciation of their fan base for past editions and at least supported them through reprints. When the 1st edition books got their premium reprints I was first in line for it and to be honest its the first time I have bought something from Wizard in the last 5 years that had been giddy with excitment and I can't thank them enough for reprinting this amazing piece of history, yet still very much playable game. If and when they do it for 2nd edition I will be buying those books as well, because frankly I just love the idea.
I personally have always felt that there was no reason whatsoever to stop writing for 2nd and 3rd editions in particular. These game systems are still extremely popular, their is a huge market for them, they should be supported and if they turned things back on and started writing books for these systems again I think most of the "edition war" discussion would cease. They exist only because of the frustration and anger of a abandoned community of fans. Its easy to hate 4th edition if its existance is the reason 3rd edition is out of print... same is true for 2nd edition and much of the hate from their fans (a bizzare situation at best) stems from this.
|
|
|
|
9 months ago ::
Oct 09, 2012 - 12:59PM
#213
|
Date Joined:
Jun 15, 2004
|
I found that in the first 6 pages 90% of the results where complaints about lack of role-playing in 4th edition.
To clarify: many players have complained that roleplaying is reduced in 4e.
However, many posters in this thread were arguing against the notion that Roleplaying doesn't exist in 4e. The point was that there is little need to attack that notion, since it is inherently incorrect, and no one is actually debating for it. It is beating up a strawman.
|
|
|
|
9 months ago ::
Oct 09, 2012 - 3:05PM
#214
|
Date Joined:
Jan 29, 2005
|
I am really hoping that some other company develops a D&D-esque game that takes after 4th Edition's principles, as that would lead to a much brighter future for roleplaying games. Here's to some bright team doing a kickstarter to that effect!
It already exists. 13th Age. Rob Heinsoo and Jonathan Tweet's brainchild. It's a mix of 4e, AD&D, and FATE... to sum it up in the simplest of terms. It is quite wonderful.
|
|
|
|
9 months ago ::
Oct 09, 2012 - 7:12PM
#215
|
Date Joined:
Jun 12, 2009
|
Did we seriously have no one just google "4e lack of role playing" to prove toki wrong?
I did. There were no such arguments on the first 3 or so pages, and I didn't see much of a point in looking beyond that.
I don't know how exactly google works but we must not be getting the same search results because I found that in the first 6 pages 90% of the results where complaints about lack of role-playing in 4th edition. Not that really says a whole lot however because doing the same search on 3rd edition brought equally as many results, so its really nothing to discuss. All it means is lots of people have opinions and if you google search an opinion regardless of what it is you will get ample hits on in.
I don't think there is a good way to get a consensus or factual data about what people think about D&D 4th edition or any edition for that matter. Certianly your not going to get one on the fan forums.
I personally think actions speak louder than words. A new edition on the way that is trying to distance itself from 4th edition. 1st edition and 3rd edition reprints. Paizo (Pathfinder) a company and game system very easily competes against 4th edition and is doing as well if not better than 4th edition. Very little fan support, easily one of the least fan supported D&D's in the history of the franchise. Rub all these things together and you start to get at least some sort of a picture about how healthy of a run 4th edition has had and I don't think that picture is that pretty. Its beloved by its fans, and I think that's something that will keep this game on people's tables for a long time to come, but personally I think it was an attempt at a design philosophy that just wasn't popular enough for the D&D franchise.
From my personal experiance, 4th edition is the least popular edition in the franchise.
I typed "4e Dungeons and Dragons has no roleplaying".
We summoned a devil once. All we used was the D&D books, too. It was pretty kwazy.
God of Arrested Development and Intelligence 
Resident Left Hand of Stalin and Banana Stand Grandstander
Pie-Cooling-On-A-Windowsill of the House of Trolls
In the morning HK'll be sober but you'll still be a meatbag.
I know I misspell "Danke" in my posts. It's an inside joke.
"Ten cents gets you nuts." -George Michael
Spoiler:
Show
''Being president is like running a cemetery: you've got a lot of people under you and nobody's listening.''
—Bill Clinton
Marketing and design are two different things. For instance the snuggy was designed for people in wheel chairs and marketed to people that are too incompetent to operate a blanket.
You are not a moral man. There are not enough middle fingers in the world for you.
Why do I get a silly PG-13 man giggle going everytime I see Fist Of The Forest ?
When she was 8 years old, yeah, yeah she was. Sicko. And we all know you only like Harry Potter cuz of what a huge Equus fan you are. 
How do you know about that? I only told one person.
Well, it's like this: Marie gets around.
I do not understand. I can't give a game to a friend?
You can, but only once. That friend can't give it to anyone else. The holy corporation has spoken. Stop complaining and give them all your money.
But how will they know?
I do not play video games.
then why do you care? 
Why do you care that I care?
i'm curious
You are? Cool! Here is a hornet's nest. Stick your [redacted] in it to see what happens.
And do not call me a Yank. I am a Québecois, basically your better.
I heard samsung is making shoes that are making you run faster too.
Liar. Hipsters don't run. It's too mainstream.
Actually, Santa just didn't like you. However, you weren't on the Naughty List, so he had to give you something "better" than coal.
I'd take coal. Heating your house is expesive, and engery cost arn't going down.
Mabey if i beat enough homeless people, i won't have to be cold this year. 
"Heroes"...I wish I had those. I remember in my first-ever campaign one PC went around shootin all the unconscious baddies in the head to gain Dark Side Points...
Whaaaaaat?!??
Wow...way to waste perfectly good potential slaves.
Er...no wait I mean..uh...something not evil!
(Quotes screwed up on the next one, won't give the poster's name. It's in the Best Lines thread on the D&D forum)
First, an experience from a game I played in a few years back. Our DM didn't like 3.5 as a whole but liked parts of it. So he hands us a big ass rules packet for his modified FR campaign, complete with quotes from important NPC's on the front. I can't remember most of the HRs, just that some how gods like Cyric and Bhaal existed at the same time, despite the obvious problems there. In the end the game became a problem more because of the railroading than the HRs, but it ended with this classic line, after our ranger tried to disarm the strange woman following us WITH HIS BOW: DM: You just killed (insert random noble sounding name here) JP: Was she important? Jack: Dude, she's quoted on the front of the rules packet!
"Why in the wide,wide, world of all things irrational would I help you?
-Daniel Jackson
"Fun will now commence."
-Seven of Nine
"Excellent."
-Mr. Burns.
Whey is a crotch.
Cut the last encounter on your way out after dealing with the Darth. He's the BBEG. Treat him as such. Play up that Darth Revan is THAT much of a badarse. When the shuttle landed, I had no less than 13 JEDI MASTERS step off the shuttle. The PCs were slack-jawed. After the meetup with Bastila (as she's carrying Revan's body), only TWO jedi masters remained with her. Let me tell you, the player whining about not getting to fight Revan himself shut up pretty quickly when he saw that.
There's so much you can do with insanity, especially when it has alot of resources.
1. Cleric cast protection from fire on Tank.
2. Tank goes in and get surrounded by enemies.
3. Wizard cast fireball and blows them up.
4. ???
5. Profit
I go by the saying," If it ain't friendly fire then it's not working."
And the greatest post moderation of all time...
I gave that (Content Removed) a to-scale Lego replica. (Content Removed) love to-scale Lego replicas.
(ORC_Cerberus: Edited - Vulgarity is against the Code of Conduct)
|
|
|
|
9 months ago ::
Oct 09, 2012 - 9:58PM
#216
|
Date Joined:
Jan 15, 2009
|
I am really hoping that some other company develops a D&D-esque game that takes after 4th Edition's principles, as that would lead to a much brighter future for roleplaying games. Here's to some bright team doing a kickstarter to that effect!
It already exists. 13th Age. Rob Heinsoo and Jonathan Tweet's brainchild. It's a mix of 4e, AD&D, and FATE... to sum it up in the simplest of terms. It is quite wonderful.
I keep hearing its name batted around but its not in actual print yet just closed beta or something right?
|
|
|
|
9 months ago ::
Oct 09, 2012 - 10:09PM
#217
|
Date Joined:
Nov 13, 2004
|
Sort of a closed beta - the core book should be finished and be sent off to the printers by the end of October. No official release date yet, cuz printing schedules tend to mung them up anyways. Dunno when the pdf version will be for sale - us pre-order folks will be getting the final version of the rules by the end of the month, but I not sure if that will be the final, shiny pdf version.
4e D&D is not a "Tabletop MMO." It is not Massively Multiplayer, and is usually not played Online. Come up with better descriptions of your complaints, cuz this one means jack ****.
|
|
|
|
9 months ago ::
Oct 10, 2012 - 10:52AM
#218
|
Date Joined:
Apr 16, 2009
|
Reskinning and reflavor make most of us like we are creating our character more than them handling over the flavor/fluff...I am currently playing a gloom pact hexblade reskinned/reflavored as dark pact, the scourge is that whip with snake heads that appear in alot of drow artwork, because the mechanic and the flavor is separated enough in 4e, i can do that, while i can't do that in other editions, because flavor and mechanics are married and hold way too much together and if you change the flavor, you have to mess up with the mechanics... Hence the reason why i hate enforced flavor on DnDNext.
Perhaps this is the reason I personally don't care for 4th edition. I want to pick up a book, read it and have a good sense of themes, style, flavor and fluff.
There's the difference in attitude.
If I read a character class (or background or etc.) and have *A* good sense of theme, style, flavor, and fluff, I consider that class pretty weak and limited. I prefer to have at least four or five. With at least one of them formed by inverting one of the others. (If mortals can make pacts with demons, why not with angels? - Divine Pact Warlock.)
I recently played a 4E Shaman. Character concept: Pinocchio and Jiminy Cricket. Pure refluffing - no houseruling needed.
When I read about a Hexblade, I want to find out what a hexblade is, not get the mechanical rules for a generic class that uses generic powers under a generic.
I don't happen to have the book that introduces the Hexblade. But I have PHB2 handy and randomly opened it on the Sorcerer. It has plenty of inspirational description - of the class itself, of each of several class options, and of each spell - and if you choose an entirely different inspiration, you break nothing. Because while mechanics are almost always consistent with description (and there is actually more description than in prior editions), they are not tied to the description.
"The world does not work the way you have been taught it does. We are not real as such; we exist within The Story. Unfortunately for you, you have inherited a condition from your mother known as Primary Protagonist Syndrome, which means The Story is interested in you. It will find you, and if you are not ready for the narrative strands it will throw at you..." - from Footloose
|
|
|
|
9 months ago ::
Oct 10, 2012 - 11:12AM
#219
|
Date Joined:
Apr 22, 2001
|
Because while mechanics are almost always consistent with description (and there is actually more description than in prior editions), they are not tied to the description.
We must not be reading the same books.
If I read a character class (or background or etc.) and have *A* good sense of theme, style, flavor, and fluff, I consider that class pretty weak and limited. I prefer to have at least four or five. With at least one of them formed by inverting one of the others. (If mortals can make pacts with demons, why not with angels? - Divine Pact Warlock.)
I recently played a 4E Shaman. Character concept: Pinocchio and Jiminy Cricket. Pure refluffing - no houseruling needed.
Hey I agree with you here, but before we start asking Wizards to create more than one theme for each class, lets at least have them do at least one to begin with. Because by that description, everything in 4th edition is extremely limited as you didn't even get proper descriptions for... well anything. I mean its a wildly generic game. Just take the cleric class. Two paragraphs. The first paragraph is a description of the clice that is the cleric, the second one informs you that clerics apperantly believe in god? Thats it... In the bottom right hand corner, two paragraphs, dedicated to describing the entire class followed by no less than 15 pages of "stats" and powers for that class. How does that inspire anyone to role-play anything? The flavor text on the back of the cards for a character in the boardgame Descent has more description of their class than what you get from the worlds best (formally) leading role-playing. Its a traggedy.
|
|
|
|
9 months ago ::
Oct 13, 2012 - 12:08AM
#220
|
|
|
Because while mechanics are almost always consistent with description (and there is actually more description than in prior editions), they are not tied to the description.
We must not be reading the same books.
Or maybe you just aren't all that creative, or good at lateral thinking.
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection. My Guides
Show
|
|
|
