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11 months ago ::
Aug 21, 2012 - 9:20PM
#61
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Date Joined:
Dec 10, 2008
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However: awesomeness can be subjective. So imagine some players that didn't think 4e's combat was so awesome. Now imagine their perspective of a 'dynamic in which combat pushes role play to the side'.
If the dynamic is "people like the combat, so they do it more, and this is what pushes RP to the side" then if people didn't like the combat, that dynamic breaks apart. They would not seek to do more combat, and thus it would not be able to push RP to the side.
Furthermore, now it's being argued that the issue is subjective whereas before it was being argued that 4e was objectively more difficult to roleplay in.
OD&D, 1E and 2E challenged the player.
3E challenged the character, not the player.
Now 4E takes it a step further by challenging a GROUP OF PLAYERS to work together as a TEAM.
That's why I love 4E.
"Your ability to summon a horde of celestial superbeings at will is making my ... BMX skills look a bit redundant."
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11 months ago ::
Aug 22, 2012 - 7:56AM
#62
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Date Joined:
Jun 16, 2004
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geek-related.com/2008/06/12/is-dd-4e-rea...Essentially the argument. He even makes the "you can role-play in monopoly if you want to!" argument too. The search function sucks, so its a lot harder to search for those words on the Wizards site.
Gold is for the mistress, silver for the maid Copper for the craftsman, cunning at his trade." "Good!" said the Baron, sitting in his hall, "But Iron -- Cold Iron -- is master of them all." -Kipling Defenders: We ARE the wall! I've replaced the previous Edition Warring line in my sig with this one, because honestly, everybody needs to work together to make the D&D they like without trampling on somebody else's D&D. Miss d20 Modern? Take a look at Dias Ex Machina Game's UltraModern 4e! I am a hero, not a chump.
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11 months ago ::
Aug 22, 2012 - 8:29AM
#63
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- Forum Guide
- Hero Craftsman Gold Medalist
- Master Dungeon Master
Date Joined:
Jun 23, 2005
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I published my own theory on the phenomenon almost three years ago: Combat Investment
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11 months ago ::
Aug 22, 2012 - 2:32PM
#64
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Date Joined:
Mar 28, 2010
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Good article wrecan, thanks for linking to it.
I do however find that some of the points aren't exactly accurate, at least not in today's 4E.
Most notably it's been mentioned and again stated in your article that there are no outside of combat powers. This is not true. there are dozens of powers that give bonuses to skills for example that are used outside of combat and can be used inside combat in certain situations. Like a bonus to bluff is much more likely to be used outside of combat during RP unless you're actively using it to gain in combat bonuses. There's nothing wrong with that but you're more likely to use your encounter power to gain +5 bluff during RP than in combat no ?
"Non nobis Domine Sed nomini tuo da gloriam" "I wish for death not because I want to die, but because I seek the war eternal"
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11 months ago ::
Aug 22, 2012 - 3:21PM
#65
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Date Joined:
Dec 10, 2008
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Good article wrecan, thanks for linking to it.
I do however find that some of the points aren't exactly accurate, at least not in today's 4E.
Most notably it's been mentioned and again stated in your article that there are no outside of combat powers. This is not true. there are dozens of powers that give bonuses to skills for example that are used outside of combat and can be used inside combat in certain situations. Like a bonus to bluff is much more likely to be used outside of combat during RP unless you're actively using it to gain in combat bonuses. There's nothing wrong with that but you're more likely to use your encounter power to gain +5 bluff during RP than in combat no ?
See also: Rituals. In other words, powers that are more useful for non-combat situations - and anyone can get them so they're equal-opportunity powers too.
OD&D, 1E and 2E challenged the player.
3E challenged the character, not the player.
Now 4E takes it a step further by challenging a GROUP OF PLAYERS to work together as a TEAM.
That's why I love 4E.
"Your ability to summon a horde of celestial superbeings at will is making my ... BMX skills look a bit redundant."
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11 months ago ::
Aug 22, 2012 - 3:41PM
#66
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Date Joined:
Jan 29, 2005
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If you think there's no roleplaying in 4e, then you need to start roleplaying. 100% your fault if it is absent.
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11 months ago ::
Aug 22, 2012 - 3:58PM
#67
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Date Joined:
Mar 28, 2010
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If you think there's no roleplaying in 4e, then you need to start roleplaying. 100% your fault if it is absent.
Yep, completely group based problem, nothing to do with the edition. Fix it for yourselves by roleplaying !
"Non nobis Domine Sed nomini tuo da gloriam" "I wish for death not because I want to die, but because I seek the war eternal"
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11 months ago ::
Aug 22, 2012 - 4:09PM
#68
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Date Joined:
Jun 12, 2009
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100% your fault if it is absent.
This is going a bit far. There is an impulse, upon reading the 4e core rulebooks, to get some minis and a map and have at it. But it's very easy to simply push this impulse to the side.
We summoned a devil once. All we used was the D&D books, too. It was pretty kwazy.
God of Arrested Development and Intelligence 
Resident Left Hand of Stalin and Banana Stand Grandstander
Pie-Cooling-On-A-Windowsill of the House of Trolls
In the morning HK'll be sober but you'll still be a meatbag.
I know I misspell "Danke" in my posts. It's an inside joke.
"Ten cents gets you nuts." -George Michael
Spoiler:
Show
''Being president is like running a cemetery: you've got a lot of people under you and nobody's listening.''
—Bill Clinton
Marketing and design are two different things. For instance the snuggy was designed for people in wheel chairs and marketed to people that are too incompetent to operate a blanket.
You are not a moral man. There are not enough middle fingers in the world for you.
Why do I get a silly PG-13 man giggle going everytime I see Fist Of The Forest ?
I do not understand. I can't give a game to a friend?
You can, but only once. That friend can't give it to anyone else. The holy corporation has spoken. Stop complaining and give them all your money.
But how will they know?
I do not play video games.
then why do you care? 
Why do you care that I care?
i'm curious
You are? Cool! Here is a hornet's nest. Stick your [redacted] in it to see what happens.
And do not call me a Yank. I am a Québecois, basically your better.
I heard samsung is making shoes that are making you run faster too.
Liar. Hipsters don't run. It's too mainstream.
Actually, Santa just didn't like you. However, you weren't on the Naughty List, so he had to give you something "better" than coal.
I'd take coal. Heating your house is expesive, and engery cost arn't going down.
Mabey if i beat enough homeless people, i won't have to be cold this year. 
"Heroes"...I wish I had those. I remember in my first-ever campaign one PC went around shootin all the unconscious baddies in the head to gain Dark Side Points...
Whaaaaaat?!??
Wow...way to waste perfectly good potential slaves.
Er...no wait I mean..uh...something not evil!
(Quotes screwed up on the next one, won't give the poster's name. It's in the Best Lines thread on the D&D forum)
First, an experience from a game I played in a few years back. Our DM didn't like 3.5 as a whole but liked parts of it. So he hands us a big ass rules packet for his modified FR campaign, complete with quotes from important NPC's on the front. I can't remember most of the HRs, just that some how gods like Cyric and Bhaal existed at the same time, despite the obvious problems there. In the end the game became a problem more because of the railroading than the HRs, but it ended with this classic line, after our ranger tried to disarm the strange woman following us WITH HIS BOW: DM: You just killed (insert random noble sounding name here) JP: Was she important? Jack: Dude, she's quoted on the front of the rules packet!
"Why in the wide,wide, world of all things irrational would I help you?
-Daniel Jackson
"Fun will now commence."
-Seven of Nine
"Excellent."
-Mr. Burns.
Whey is a crotch.
Cut the last encounter on your way out after dealing with the Darth. He's the BBEG. Treat him as such. Play up that Darth Revan is THAT much of a badarse. When the shuttle landed, I had no less than 13 JEDI MASTERS step off the shuttle. The PCs were slack-jawed. After the meetup with Bastila (as she's carrying Revan's body), only TWO jedi masters remained with her. Let me tell you, the player whining about not getting to fight Revan himself shut up pretty quickly when he saw that. 
There's so much you can do with insanity, especially when it has alot of resources.
1. Cleric cast protection from fire on Tank.
2. Tank goes in and get surrounded by enemies.
3. Wizard cast fireball and blows them up.
4. ???
5. Profit
I go by the saying," If it ain't friendly fire then it's not working."
And the greatest post moderation of all time...
I gave that (Content Removed) a to-scale Lego replica. (Content Removed) love to-scale Lego replicas.
(ORC_Cerberus: Edited - Vulgarity is against the Code of Conduct)
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11 months ago ::
Aug 22, 2012 - 5:52PM
#69
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Date Joined:
Jan 29, 2005
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100% your fault if it is absent.
This is going a bit far. There is an impulse, upon reading the 4e core rulebooks, to get some minis and a map and have at it. But it's very easy to simply push this impulse to the side.
Not if you actually read the whole book. Like the entire section called "roleplaying" and how it is done, followed by an example. It has heavy combat rules, but so does 3e. The rules are almost identical in that regard.
Bottom line is, if you say "I can't roleplay in 4e", that is 100% your fault. You simply don't want to, and that has nothing to do with the game. Roleplaying is edition neutral.
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11 months ago ::
Aug 23, 2012 - 5:24AM
#70
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100% your fault if it is absent.
This is going a bit far. There is an impulse, upon reading the 4e core rulebooks, to get some minis and a map and have at it. But it's very easy to simply push this impulse to the side.
I don't see the connection. Are you suggesting that minis and a map reduce role playing or somehow make it harder?
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