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10 months ago ::
Aug 21, 2012 - 1:27PM
#41
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Date Joined:
Jun 14, 2009
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So, let me see if I understand your point, Toki....
Because 4E has clear and engaging rules for combat, and because 4E players and DM's tend to have fun during combat encounters, it creates a dynamic in which combat pushes role play to the side. Is that it?
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10 months ago ::
Aug 21, 2012 - 1:42PM
#42
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Date Joined:
Mar 28, 2010
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I don't think 4E stops players from roleplaying. I don't think that the rules stop players from roleplaying. I do not believe this is a wide spread belief among the player base. I do not trust in the opinion of Mearl for obvious reasons.
What I do believe is that roleplaying is entirely dependant upon the group at the table. The amount of roleplay is affected by this and this alone. Nothing in the rules stops you from roleplaying, nothing in the published modules / encounters / etc stops you from roleplaying.
Spitballing a problem that is entirely based on the people at the table upon an entire edition is absolute NONSENSE.
Like if groups from earlier editions never only played for combat and not RP. Like if 3.5 players never thought the same thing about that edition, or pathfinder etc... This pedestal some of you are placing the earlier editions on is not made of roses ! LOL
"Non nobis Domine Sed nomini tuo da gloriam" "I wish for death not because I want to die, but because I seek the war eternal"
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10 months ago ::
Aug 21, 2012 - 1:43PM
#43
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Date Joined:
Feb 14, 2007
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So, let me see if I understand your point, Toki....
Because 4E has clear and engaging rules for combat, and because 4E players and DM's tend to have fun during combat encounters, it creates a dynamic in which combat pushes role play to the side. Is that it?
Yes, thank you. That is an excellent restatement of my earlier proposition of "how about if we say something like "4e did combat so awesomely that now all my group wants to do is run combat scenarios!!". Would you accept that statement?"
However one wishes to look at it, there is a roleplaying issue. D&D is a social game. So even if you believe the issue exists only in the mind of players you feel should know better: that issue still exists.
Arguing against it doesn't actually make it go away. Mechanics do influence play style. Of course you can overcome that influence, but that doesn't mean the influence doesn't even exist. And we can still love an edition while acknowledging a downside.
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10 months ago ::
Aug 21, 2012 - 1:49PM
#44
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Date Joined:
Jun 12, 2009
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I'm a bit curious why you are posting on a 4e forum, since clearly you don't care for it.
Do you believe I don't care for 4e either?
Of course not.I haven't seen Toki Wartooth on the forums recently, although I certainly could have missed him. He refers to people as 4e fanboys, and is arguing that 4e = No RPing, which is the banner for all of its haters. You, on the other hand, are more moderate.
We summoned a devil once. All we used was the D&D books, too. It was pretty kwazy.
God of Arrested Development and Intelligence 
Resident Left Hand of Stalin and Banana Stand Grandstander
Pie-Cooling-On-A-Windowsill of the House of Trolls
In the morning HK'll be sober but you'll still be a meatbag.
I know I misspell "Danke" in my posts. It's an inside joke.
"Ten cents gets you nuts." -George Michael
Spoiler:
Show
''Being president is like running a cemetery: you've got a lot of people under you and nobody's listening.''
—Bill Clinton
You are not a moral man. There are not enough middle fingers in the world for you.
Why do I get a silly PG-13 man giggle
going everytime I see Fist Of The Forest ?
Actually, Santa just didn't like you. However, you weren't on the Naughty List, so he had to give you something "better" than coal.
I'd take coal. Heating your house is expesive, and engery cost arn't going down.
Mabey if i beat enough homeless people, i won't have to be cold this year. 
"Heroes"...I wish I had those. I remember in my first-ever campaign one PC went around shootin all the unconscious baddies in the head to gain Dark Side Points...
Whaaaaaat?!??
Wow...way to waste perfectly good potential slaves.
Er...no wait I mean..uh...something not evil!
(Quotes screwed up on the next one, won't give the poster's name. It's in the Best Lines thread on the D&D forum)
First, an experience from a game I played in a few years back. Our DM didn't like 3.5 as a whole but liked parts of it. So he hands us a big ass rules packet for his modified FR campaign, complete with quotes from important NPC's on the front. I can't remember most of the HRs, just that some how gods like Cyric and Bhaal existed at the same time, despite the obvious problems there. In the end the game became a problem more because of the railroading than the HRs, but it ended with this classic line, after our ranger tried to disarm the strange woman following us WITH HIS BOW: DM: You just killed (insert random noble sounding name here) JP: Was she important? Jack: Dude, she's quoted on the front of the rules packet!
"Why in the wide,wide, world of all things irrational would I help you?
-Daniel Jackson
"Fun will now commence."
-Seven of Nine
"Excellent."
-Mr. Burns.
Whey is a crotch.
Cut the last encounter on your way out after dealing with the Darth. He's the BBEG. Treat him as such. Play up that Darth Revan is THAT much of a badarse. When the shuttle landed, I had no less than 13 JEDI MASTERS step off the shuttle. The PCs were slack-jawed. After the meetup with Bastila (as she's carrying Revan's body), only TWO jedi masters remained with her. Let me tell you, the player whining about not getting to fight Revan himself shut up pretty quickly when he saw that. 
There's so much you can do with insanity, especially when it has alot of resources.
1. Cleric cast protection from fire on Tank.
2. Tank goes in and get surrounded by enemies.
3. Wizard cast fireball and blows them up.
4. ???
5. Profit
I go by the saying," If it ain't friendly fire then it's not working."
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10 months ago ::
Aug 21, 2012 - 1:51PM
#45
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Date Joined:
Jun 12, 2009
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So, let me see if I understand your point, Toki....
Because 4E has clear and engaging rules for combat, and because 4E players and DM's tend to have fun during combat encounters, it creates a dynamic in which combat pushes role play to the side. Is that it?
Yes, thank you. That is an excellent restatement of my earlier proposition of "how about if we say something like "4e did combat so awesomely that now all my group wants to do is run combat scenarios!!". Would you accept that statement?"
Then that's your group's problem, not 4e's. What you're saying is that no edition should do anything especially well, ever.
We summoned a devil once. All we used was the D&D books, too. It was pretty kwazy.
God of Arrested Development and Intelligence
Resident Left Hand of Stalin and Banana Stand Grandstander
Pie-Cooling-On-A-Windowsill of the House of Trolls
In the morning HK'll be sober but you'll still be a meatbag.
I know I misspell "Danke" in my posts. It's an inside joke.
"Ten cents gets you nuts." -George Michael
Spoiler:
Show
''Being president is like running a cemetery: you've got a lot of people under you and nobody's listening.''
—Bill Clinton
You are not a moral man. There are not enough middle fingers in the world for you.
Why do I get a silly PG-13 man giggle
going everytime I see Fist Of The Forest ?
Actually, Santa just didn't like you. However, you weren't on the Naughty List, so he had to give you something "better" than coal.
I'd take coal. Heating your house is expesive, and engery cost arn't going down.
Mabey if i beat enough homeless people, i won't have to be cold this year.
"Heroes"...I wish I had those. I remember in my first-ever campaign one PC went around shootin all the unconscious baddies in the head to gain Dark Side Points...
Whaaaaaat?!??
Wow...way to waste perfectly good potential slaves.
Er...no wait I mean..uh...something not evil!
(Quotes screwed up on the next one, won't give the poster's name. It's in the Best Lines thread on the D&D forum)
First, an experience from a game I played in a few years back. Our DM didn't like 3.5 as a whole but liked parts of it. So he hands us a big ass rules packet for his modified FR campaign, complete with quotes from important NPC's on the front. I can't remember most of the HRs, just that some how gods like Cyric and Bhaal existed at the same time, despite the obvious problems there. In the end the game became a problem more because of the railroading than the HRs, but it ended with this classic line, after our ranger tried to disarm the strange woman following us WITH HIS BOW: DM: You just killed (insert random noble sounding name here) JP: Was she important? Jack: Dude, she's quoted on the front of the rules packet!
"Why in the wide,wide, world of all things irrational would I help you?
-Daniel Jackson
"Fun will now commence."
-Seven of Nine
"Excellent."
-Mr. Burns.
Whey is a crotch.
Cut the last encounter on your way out after dealing with the Darth. He's the BBEG. Treat him as such. Play up that Darth Revan is THAT much of a badarse. When the shuttle landed, I had no less than 13 JEDI MASTERS step off the shuttle. The PCs were slack-jawed. After the meetup with Bastila (as she's carrying Revan's body), only TWO jedi masters remained with her. Let me tell you, the player whining about not getting to fight Revan himself shut up pretty quickly when he saw that.
There's so much you can do with insanity, especially when it has alot of resources.
1. Cleric cast protection from fire on Tank.
2. Tank goes in and get surrounded by enemies.
3. Wizard cast fireball and blows them up.
4. ???
5. Profit
I go by the saying," If it ain't friendly fire then it's not working."
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10 months ago ::
Aug 21, 2012 - 1:55PM
#46
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Date Joined:
Jun 12, 2009
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I'm a bit curious why you are posting on a 4e forum, since clearly you don't care for it.
You are incorrect: I care for it very much. Acknowledging a downside is different from not caring.
My analogy is perfectly apt.
An apt analogy would be "Apple makes good tablets. This has caused others to be disinterested in Desktops. I'm bummed by the loss of good desktop games, and people to play them with".
I understand that you do not understand or believe others viewpoint. That's ok, but the situation is there regardless of whether you believe it or understand it. It doesn't go away if it makes no sense to you.
No, vigorously arguing in favor of a downside that, if true, could potentially ruin the system for many, and calling others fanboys is why I doubted you were loyal to it. I'm perfectly willing to accept that you are, though.
No, the issue is not a blanket over the RPG market as a whole, covering very different systems (operating systems for electronics obviously) and a worldwide trend towards a new type of game (or technology). The issue is whether you can consider a product to be bad at something simply because it's good at something else.
The problem not going away if it dosen't make sense to me is not only meaningless and irrelevant, it's obvious that if I don't think it's a problem I CLEARLY don't think it's there. Since the problem is with players who cannot RP because they are distracted with " Ooooh! Shiny combat! ", ignoring it can and will make it go away.
We summoned a devil once. All we used was the D&D books, too. It was pretty kwazy.
God of Arrested Development and Intelligence
Resident Left Hand of Stalin and Banana Stand Grandstander
Pie-Cooling-On-A-Windowsill of the House of Trolls
In the morning HK'll be sober but you'll still be a meatbag.
I know I misspell "Danke" in my posts. It's an inside joke.
"Ten cents gets you nuts." -George Michael
Spoiler:
Show
''Being president is like running a cemetery: you've got a lot of people under you and nobody's listening.''
—Bill Clinton
You are not a moral man. There are not enough middle fingers in the world for you.
Why do I get a silly PG-13 man giggle
going everytime I see Fist Of The Forest ?
Actually, Santa just didn't like you. However, you weren't on the Naughty List, so he had to give you something "better" than coal.
I'd take coal. Heating your house is expesive, and engery cost arn't going down.
Mabey if i beat enough homeless people, i won't have to be cold this year.
"Heroes"...I wish I had those. I remember in my first-ever campaign one PC went around shootin all the unconscious baddies in the head to gain Dark Side Points...
Whaaaaaat?!??
Wow...way to waste perfectly good potential slaves.
Er...no wait I mean..uh...something not evil!
(Quotes screwed up on the next one, won't give the poster's name. It's in the Best Lines thread on the D&D forum)
First, an experience from a game I played in a few years back. Our DM didn't like 3.5 as a whole but liked parts of it. So he hands us a big ass rules packet for his modified FR campaign, complete with quotes from important NPC's on the front. I can't remember most of the HRs, just that some how gods like Cyric and Bhaal existed at the same time, despite the obvious problems there. In the end the game became a problem more because of the railroading than the HRs, but it ended with this classic line, after our ranger tried to disarm the strange woman following us WITH HIS BOW: DM: You just killed (insert random noble sounding name here) JP: Was she important? Jack: Dude, she's quoted on the front of the rules packet!
"Why in the wide,wide, world of all things irrational would I help you?
-Daniel Jackson
"Fun will now commence."
-Seven of Nine
"Excellent."
-Mr. Burns.
Whey is a crotch.
Cut the last encounter on your way out after dealing with the Darth. He's the BBEG. Treat him as such. Play up that Darth Revan is THAT much of a badarse. When the shuttle landed, I had no less than 13 JEDI MASTERS step off the shuttle. The PCs were slack-jawed. After the meetup with Bastila (as she's carrying Revan's body), only TWO jedi masters remained with her. Let me tell you, the player whining about not getting to fight Revan himself shut up pretty quickly when he saw that.
There's so much you can do with insanity, especially when it has alot of resources.
1. Cleric cast protection from fire on Tank.
2. Tank goes in and get surrounded by enemies.
3. Wizard cast fireball and blows them up.
4. ???
5. Profit
I go by the saying," If it ain't friendly fire then it's not working."
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10 months ago ::
Aug 21, 2012 - 1:55PM
#47
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Date Joined:
Mar 28, 2010
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yep so far the discussion seems to be about how specific groups of players can't RP at the same time as doing combat. That's a problem for them, not the entire edition.
Like saying that just because I can't juggle and tap dance at the same time, there's no one who can and it's a serious problem for all people who juggle, tap dance or both everywhere.
nonsense.
"Non nobis Domine Sed nomini tuo da gloriam" "I wish for death not because I want to die, but because I seek the war eternal"
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10 months ago ::
Aug 21, 2012 - 2:00PM
#48
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Date Joined:
Feb 14, 2007
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He refers to people as 4e fanboys
I used 'fanboy' as insulting language against a poster that had just used insulting language. My apologies if my purpose was unclear.
and is arguing that 4e = No RPing
Actually, I said "No one contends that (4e = No RPing). The only people that say that are the one's arguing against it."
Then you said "People DO say that"
I replied with "Then it should be pretty easy to point me to a someone contending this. Do so and I'll retract my statement."
Do you see what happened here?
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10 months ago ::
Aug 21, 2012 - 2:02PM
#49
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Date Joined:
Jun 12, 2009
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He refers to people as 4e fanboys
I used 'fanboy' as insulting language against a poster that had just used insulting language. My apologies if my purpose was unclear.
and is arguing that 4e = No RPing
Actually, I said "No one contends that. The only people that say that are the one's arguing against it."
Then you you said "People DO say that"
I replied with "Then it should be pretty easy to point me to a someone contending this. Do so and I'll retract my statement."
Do you see what happened here?
I apologize on both fronts. I see what you mean as fanboy being a general retort, and I was being more general then specific to you with the second quote. I wasn't thinking, I'm sorry.
EDIT: Yes, and you neglected to mention my reply.
EDIT (Again): Took out the thanks, it sounded too snotty, not what I really meant.
We summoned a devil once. All we used was the D&D books, too. It was pretty kwazy.
God of Arrested Development and Intelligence
Resident Left Hand of Stalin and Banana Stand Grandstander
Pie-Cooling-On-A-Windowsill of the House of Trolls
In the morning HK'll be sober but you'll still be a meatbag.
I know I misspell "Danke" in my posts. It's an inside joke.
"Ten cents gets you nuts." -George Michael
Spoiler:
Show
''Being president is like running a cemetery: you've got a lot of people under you and nobody's listening.''
—Bill Clinton
You are not a moral man. There are not enough middle fingers in the world for you.
Why do I get a silly PG-13 man giggle
going everytime I see Fist Of The Forest ?
Actually, Santa just didn't like you. However, you weren't on the Naughty List, so he had to give you something "better" than coal.
I'd take coal. Heating your house is expesive, and engery cost arn't going down.
Mabey if i beat enough homeless people, i won't have to be cold this year.
"Heroes"...I wish I had those. I remember in my first-ever campaign one PC went around shootin all the unconscious baddies in the head to gain Dark Side Points...
Whaaaaaat?!??
Wow...way to waste perfectly good potential slaves.
Er...no wait I mean..uh...something not evil!
(Quotes screwed up on the next one, won't give the poster's name. It's in the Best Lines thread on the D&D forum)
First, an experience from a game I played in a few years back. Our DM didn't like 3.5 as a whole but liked parts of it. So he hands us a big ass rules packet for his modified FR campaign, complete with quotes from important NPC's on the front. I can't remember most of the HRs, just that some how gods like Cyric and Bhaal existed at the same time, despite the obvious problems there. In the end the game became a problem more because of the railroading than the HRs, but it ended with this classic line, after our ranger tried to disarm the strange woman following us WITH HIS BOW: DM: You just killed (insert random noble sounding name here) JP: Was she important? Jack: Dude, she's quoted on the front of the rules packet!
"Why in the wide,wide, world of all things irrational would I help you?
-Daniel Jackson
"Fun will now commence."
-Seven of Nine
"Excellent."
-Mr. Burns.
Whey is a crotch.
Cut the last encounter on your way out after dealing with the Darth. He's the BBEG. Treat him as such. Play up that Darth Revan is THAT much of a badarse. When the shuttle landed, I had no less than 13 JEDI MASTERS step off the shuttle. The PCs were slack-jawed. After the meetup with Bastila (as she's carrying Revan's body), only TWO jedi masters remained with her. Let me tell you, the player whining about not getting to fight Revan himself shut up pretty quickly when he saw that.
There's so much you can do with insanity, especially when it has alot of resources.
1. Cleric cast protection from fire on Tank.
2. Tank goes in and get surrounded by enemies.
3. Wizard cast fireball and blows them up.
4. ???
5. Profit
I go by the saying," If it ain't friendly fire then it's not working."
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10 months ago ::
Aug 21, 2012 - 2:04PM
#50
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Date Joined:
Feb 14, 2007
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I apologize on both fronts. I see what you mean as fanboy being a general retort
No need to apologize on that point: anytime someone uses insulting language, you have a right to call them on it. You did the right thing. Thank you. 
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