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10 months ago ::
Aug 19, 2012 - 6:43PM
#51
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Date Joined:
May 19, 2011
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"don't hose the party with Silence without any sort of recourse"
Well why not? Why is it so freaking bad if a wizard is without his spells for a moment. He's got his staff, or a crossbow, right? Part of the balance in a wizard vs everyone else is that there are means to take away his spells. So what if the wizard can't be a powerhouse this time. A melee fighter has no real recourse vs a flying monster either, unless he pulls out a bow he doesn't usually use. So should we not design flying monsters? And in an open field with good lighting, a rogue will have a hell of a time trying to get his sneak attack. So what? So there are role-playing and story-organic reasons why a rogue or a fighter may not be as effective as they could be but the wizard, well don't you dare step on the wizard?
I like it! I'd definitely be down with it. But these guidelines are more for groups that find any sort of temporary PC-hosing by default "bad," such as the premise of this post. If they hate it so much that it ruins the game, then use the abilities with care. Leave them to us folks who enjoy the masochistic challenge of being weak sometimes.
I have a solution if they take silence away, have your npc half-orc assassin sneak up on the party wizard and gag him for a few rounds. That should shut him up and prevent him from casting spells
I wonder if such a player would have a temper tantrum because his character was shut down for a few rounds. Would he complaign that I'm not allowed to do that as a DM? Would he say that 'gaging' isn't a valid combat option / power?
I'd only complain if the DM just said "An orc sneaks up behind you and gags you." if I wasn't given, in 4e terms, anything like a perception check or an attack roll made to see if they actually did. If there was and I either completely bombed the check or the Orc made a good "atatck" roll to gag me, then sure, fine, I just spend my next turn taking it off and moving away to ensure he can't do it again.
Lacking those things, it just reeks of the DM telling a player they can't use their class features because screw them.
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10 months ago ::
Aug 19, 2012 - 6:44PM
#52
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Date Joined:
Apr 29, 2010
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You really are a child, you know that?
Insulting me just makes me stop reading your posts. Try again.
Dudes.. chill. This is D&D we're arguing about. Do we really want to go to our graves with our tombstones reading "He argued about D&D" ??
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10 months ago ::
Aug 19, 2012 - 6:58PM
#53
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Date Joined:
Jan 10, 2012
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You really are a child, you know that?
Insulting me just makes me stop reading your posts. Try again.
Dudes.. chill. This is D&D we're arguing about. Do we really want to go to our graves with our tombstones reading "He argued about D&D" ??
reminds me of a few death threats that were once issued between a couple of players at my table. lol.... some people really do take the game far too seriously.
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10 months ago ::
Aug 19, 2012 - 7:01PM
#54
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Date Joined:
May 19, 2011
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You really are a child, you know that?
Insulting me just makes me stop reading your posts. Try again.
Dudes.. chill. This is D&D we're arguing about. Do we really want to go to our graves with our tombstones reading "He argued about D&D" ??
Arguing implies I took his post seriously.
I was simply stating my opinion on something. I'm dropping the point if he is just going to respond by insulting me.
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10 months ago ::
Aug 19, 2012 - 7:12PM
#55
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Date Joined:
Jan 10, 2012
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"don't hose the party with Silence without any sort of recourse"
Well why not? Why is it so freaking bad if a wizard is without his spells for a moment. He's got his staff, or a crossbow, right? Part of the balance in a wizard vs everyone else is that there are means to take away his spells. So what if the wizard can't be a powerhouse this time. A melee fighter has no real recourse vs a flying monster either, unless he pulls out a bow he doesn't usually use. So should we not design flying monsters? And in an open field with good lighting, a rogue will have a hell of a time trying to get his sneak attack. So what? So there are role-playing and story-organic reasons why a rogue or a fighter may not be as effective as they could be but the wizard, well don't you dare step on the wizard?
I like it! I'd definitely be down with it. But these guidelines are more for groups that find any sort of temporary PC-hosing by default "bad," such as the premise of this post. If they hate it so much that it ruins the game, then use the abilities with care. Leave them to us folks who enjoy the masochistic challenge of being weak sometimes.
I have a solution if they take silence away, have your npc half-orc assassin sneak up on the party wizard and gag him for a few rounds. That should shut him up and prevent him from casting spells
I wonder if such a player would have a temper tantrum because his character was shut down for a few rounds. Would he complaign that I'm not allowed to do that as a DM? Would he say that 'gaging' isn't a valid combat option / power?
I'd only complain if the DM just said "An orc sneaks up behind you and gags you." if I wasn't given, in 4e terms, anything like a perception check or an attack roll made to see if they actually did. If there was and I either completely bombed the check or the Orc made a good "atatck" roll to gag me, then sure, fine, I just spend my next turn taking it off and moving away to ensure he can't do it again.
Lacking those things, it just reeks of the DM telling a player they can't use their class features because screw them.
And that's all you would do as a wizard with a silence spell problem. You would simply move away or cast a spell like Vocalize. That is unless the Silence spell was cast on him, in which case he would get a saving throw.
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10 months ago ::
Aug 19, 2012 - 7:42PM
#56
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Date Joined:
May 19, 2011
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"don't hose the party with Silence without any sort of recourse"
Well why not? Why is it so freaking bad if a wizard is without his spells for a moment. He's got his staff, or a crossbow, right? Part of the balance in a wizard vs everyone else is that there are means to take away his spells. So what if the wizard can't be a powerhouse this time. A melee fighter has no real recourse vs a flying monster either, unless he pulls out a bow he doesn't usually use. So should we not design flying monsters? And in an open field with good lighting, a rogue will have a hell of a time trying to get his sneak attack. So what? So there are role-playing and story-organic reasons why a rogue or a fighter may not be as effective as they could be but the wizard, well don't you dare step on the wizard?
I like it! I'd definitely be down with it. But these guidelines are more for groups that find any sort of temporary PC-hosing by default "bad," such as the premise of this post. If they hate it so much that it ruins the game, then use the abilities with care. Leave them to us folks who enjoy the masochistic challenge of being weak sometimes.
I have a solution if they take silence away, have your npc half-orc assassin sneak up on the party wizard and gag him for a few rounds. That should shut him up and prevent him from casting spells
I wonder if such a player would have a temper tantrum because his character was shut down for a few rounds. Would he complaign that I'm not allowed to do that as a DM? Would he say that 'gaging' isn't a valid combat option / power?
I'd only complain if the DM just said "An orc sneaks up behind you and gags you." if I wasn't given, in 4e terms, anything like a perception check or an attack roll made to see if they actually did. If there was and I either completely bombed the check or the Orc made a good "atatck" roll to gag me, then sure, fine, I just spend my next turn taking it off and moving away to ensure he can't do it again.
Lacking those things, it just reeks of the DM telling a player they can't use their class features because screw them.
And that's all you would do as a wizard with a silence spell problem. You would simply move away or cast a spell like Vocalize. That is unless the Silence spell was cast on him, in which case he would get a saving throw.
The saving throw I have no issue with. The only time I have a problem if the DM(or player without specifically laying a trap or ambushing or whatever) makes it effect me and there is absolutely nothing I can do about it(like one 4e DM I played with who, after throwing approx 7 Solos back to back[3 Level+5s one after another for Fight 1, 4 Level+5s at the same time for Fight 2, then a Level+9 Solo for Fight 3] instakilled us for winning, no warning, no save, just dead.)
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10 months ago ::
Aug 19, 2012 - 8:56PM
#57
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Date Joined:
May 15, 2008
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I think immobile, save-less silence is pretty well balanced. Allowing saves or checks to avoid it would make it a pretty awful spell - compare it with other spells of the level that effect spellcasters and non spellcasters alike, prevent non spellcasting actions or simply kill people. Making spellcasters take a stroll is pretty low on the list of nastyness.
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10 months ago ::
Aug 19, 2012 - 9:41PM
#58
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Date Joined:
Jun 21, 2005
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The silence spell by itself is fine, thats not now or really ever has been an issue. The problem comes up when someone couples the silence spell and one of the any number of movement imparing conditions.
Its a binary problem, A (Silence) by itself is fine and B (immobilized, restrained, grappled, etc..) is fine but A+B= characters sitting there bored unable to participate watching others do things. And having players have to sit out through no fault or agency of their own is not something thats in any way good.
And yeah this has happened to me in game, twice actually by 2 different DM's. The first time was with a rather inexpirenced DM who didn't realize that he had locked me out of the fight until after it happened. The second time was by a **** DM who I quit playing with shortly thereafter. He did it after I killed his pet NPC and he beame really vindictive. I spen a good 45 minutes just sitting around doing nothing.
I recognize that my expirences are not universal but as you can imagine they left a bad taste behind. I'll also be the first to aknowledge that a quality DM can mitigate/negate these circumstances, the problem is that not every DM is a quality one.
Now heres a quick suggestion on how I'd suggest the spell goes
Silence is cast on the area, done. Anyone in the area who wants to cast a spell has to first make a Save and this save would need to be made everytime they want to cast in the silence. If they fail the save they cast and lose the prepared spell but nothing happens.
Obviously getting out of the silence is the best thing to do if you can but if for whatever reason your 95 lb weakling bookworm wizard who couldn't fight his way out of a wet paper bag is prevented from leaving he isn't completly hosed.
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10 months ago ::
Aug 19, 2012 - 9:59PM
#59
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Date Joined:
Jan 11, 2012
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Not to knock your experience, I'm just wondering, didn't he have a crossbow or a dagger or a sling he could use? When I play a wizard I always make sure I have a backup weapon or two in case something like that happens. But then when I play a fighter I generally have 4-5 weapons that I switch between. And when I play a rogue I have 10 daggers or so. Plus a bow. And a garrote.
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10 months ago ::
Aug 19, 2012 - 11:02PM
#60
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Date Joined:
Jun 21, 2005
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I did in fact have a ranged weapon, crossbow I think for the 1st example but I was also hit with a web (the reason I couldn't get out) I also couldnt make the DC to get out of the web and I think everyone who I would have been able to shoot had concealment because of the web. The DM was kind of inexpirenced and didnt realize that the 2 things would work like they did, after he felt worse than I did, I actually thought it was kinda funny. It sucked but was funny afterwords.
It was the second time I was hosed by silence that really set my dislike for it in stone. The DM in this instance (different guy) was being a jerk, planned it out ahead of time because in an earlier battle I killed a pet NPC in a way he didnt plan for. He sent in some mooks who just kept grappling my guy while he was in the area of the silence.
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