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Switch to Forum Live View CR/EL For low number parties
10 months ago  ::  Aug 11, 2012 - 9:27AM #1
TursiopsTruncatus
Date Joined: Jul 23, 2012
Posts: 6
As it is I'm DMing a group of 2. We're all new players and unfortunetely there are no experienced D&D players anywhere near us. I've known D&D longer than them and am the most comfortable to be DM.

I know the CR/EL doesn't really work that well from reading other threads, but could someone give me an exact mathematicla forumla to work out EL, CR & how to adjust it depending on how many people are in the party? 

I'm going to use as a starter and then expand depending on how well/bad the encounters. Such as if there isn't a healer/fighter/rogue.  I'm using low levels such as orcs/goblins as templates and calling them things like 'bandits'. As it is now I'm having to roll practically everything in secret so the players don't get mauled by the enemies. I'm getting away with it so far because I'm alright at impromptu; in a few situations where the players have worked out they're going to die I save them with things like NPC ranger elf they saved earlier saving them with his band. But I need a better long term solution.
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10 months ago  ::  Aug 11, 2012 - 9:39AM #2
Oma012
Date Joined: Apr 25, 2011
Posts: 1,795

Aug 11, 2012 -- 9:27AM, TursiopsTruncatus wrote:

As it is I'm DMing a group of 2. We're all new players and unfortunetely there are no experienced D&D players anywhere near us. I've known D&D longer than them and am the most comfortable to be DM.

I know the CR/EL doesn't really work that well from reading other threads, but could someone give me an exact mathematicla forumla to work out EL, CR & how to adjust it depending on how many people are in the party? 

I'm going to use as a starter and then expand depending on how well/bad the encounters. Such as if there isn't a healer/fighter/rogue.  I'm using low levels such as orcs/goblins as templates and calling them things like 'bandits'. As it is now I'm having to roll practically everything in secret so the players don't get mauled by the enemies. I'm getting away with it so far because I'm alright at impromptu; in a few situations where the players have worked out they're going to die I save them with things like NPC ranger elf they saved earlier saving them with his band. But I need a better long term solution.




the CR and EL are different, EL is for player only (for not overpower it with a moster race or template)

CR in monster are lower like in dragons, and depen to how hard is for player to overcome it encounter(4 characters at X lv)

use the GESTALT rule of Unearthed Arcana.

you as DM need to know how strong are yours player.
and thus, put encounter that challenges the player and that can be able to overcome at same time.

Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
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10 months ago  ::  Aug 11, 2012 - 11:37AM #3
StevenO
Date Joined: Apr 9, 2004
Posts: 14,062
For starters let me say that CR and EL are different but ARE very much related.  I'll also say that neither one of them has ANYTHING to directly do with your character.  By this I mean that a CR X creature is ALWAYS a CR X creature regardless of if being encountered by a single first level character or a dozen 20th-level demigods.  EL is derived from CR with some modification possible due to the enviroment but not the party size.

The formulas for determining EL are found in the DMG starting on pg 48.  The general idea is that if you take double the number of "monsters" at a given CR you increase the EL by +2; you can repeat this doubling to increase EL although big hordes of low CR creatures may not live up to the calculated EL.  Another assumption is that a CR + (CR-2) pair = EL of CR+1.  All of the information is assuming a party of four so you need to make adjustments for a larger or smaller group.

When trying to determine how hard an encounter is you take it's calculated EL (CR never changes) and compare it to the average party level (APC) and when they are even it should be a good challenge that isn't too difficult while getting an EL = APL +4 is potentially deadly and has a 50:50 chance of going either way.  All of this assumes a four member party.

Now for a different party size you should need to make adjustments but what they are shouldn't be so hard to see.  If you noticed that for a four person party a 50:50 encounter is the APL +4; now note that if a NPC's level = CR and you add +2 to the EL for each doubling you should see that your four person party is actually fighting a group of four individuals that all have a CR equal to the party's level.  If you're trying to find a party's EFFECTIVE APL (the number that you'd compare to an encounter's EL) you'd just figure out what the party's EL would be and -4 from it.
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10 months ago  ::  Aug 11, 2012 - 11:48AM #4
StevenO
Date Joined: Apr 9, 2004
Posts: 14,062
If you want short and simple:

Treat a party of two like you would a party of four what is two levels lower:  eAPL = APL -2
Treat a party of six like you would a party of four that is one level higher:  eAPL = APL +1
Treat a party of eight like you would a party of four that is two levels higher:  eAPL = APL +2

You use these effective APLs to compare to encounter levels to determine appropriate encounters.

Now in all cases the challenge ratings that go into each EL should NOT exceed the true party level +4.  This means that for a larger group you really need to use multiple creatures/challenges to make a very difficult encounter.  The reason you don't want to use a higher CR is because one of two things can happen more often: one is that a large party's greater number of actions can overwhelm a big CR creature's actions which can make for a very easy fight while alternatively that big CR creature may be practically immune to anything the PCs can throw at it which and can easily kill off everyone in the party.
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10 months ago  ::  Aug 11, 2012 - 12:01PM #5
StevenO
Date Joined: Apr 9, 2004
Posts: 14,062
While you can treat a small party as a lower level group of four that situation really does depend more on the actual party members.  In all honesty when you build a party of two each character is going to need to be more versatile then in a party of four or a party of eight when one character's ignorance in some area is covered by someone else.  With few characters there will be things they can do just as well as a larger group but they will probably be missing certain skill sets which can make other challenged difficult.  You should also make sure your PCs have more time to rest and recuperate.

Another thing, with pair of PCs you probably don't want to start at 1st-level.  If you do you need to tailor your encounters to the group but once they get a couple levels they should be able to opperate a lot like a "normal" first level group.  Splitting XP two ways instead of four should let them level up quickly.


Now for most specific advice it would be very helpful to know what the two characters in your group look like.  
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10 months ago  ::  Aug 11, 2012 - 12:42PM #6
Oma012
Date Joined: Apr 25, 2011
Posts: 1,795

the CR and ECL in monsters entrys, ECL is for a player character , for use a moster race or template, the Dm only use the CR for encounters.


the rule of (2 CR of the same lv = CR+2) is for determinig the exp for a encounter.
not is the same for a party.


2 player LV 1 can overcome 4 goblin a CR 1, and 2 goblins CR 2/3 very easy


maybe this apply at high lvs.

Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
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10 months ago  ::  Aug 11, 2012 - 2:03PM #7
StevenO
Date Joined: Apr 9, 2004
Posts: 14,062
Oma012 forgive me for asking this but just where in the world are you posting from?  Part of the reason I'm asking is because I'm having a hard time following MANY of your recent host of posts.  Once again part of your last post here doesn't make much sense.

"Monsters" are listed in the MM (and other sources) with a CR and often an LA.  These two things are UNRELATED.  CR (Challenge Rating) is used by DMs to reflect how challenging the thing will be when put against a group of PC; CR is used to determine Encounter Level or EL.  LA is use when the creature is used as a PC or cohort; LA plus any racial HD are added directly to a character's class levels to determine its effective (or equivalent) Character Level or eCL.  ECL is used in the metagame (by DM/players) to determine XP requirements and calculate appropriate encounters.  When you figure out a party's average level you would use each character ECL if it has something more the class levels on a "normal" species.

As mentioned if you have two first level character then a "normal" encounter should only be EL 1/2 which isn't always so easy to do.  That could be a 1st level character with an NPC class (Warrior) or certain types of mosters. 
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10 months ago  ::  Aug 11, 2012 - 4:51PM #8
TursiopsTruncatus
Date Joined: Jul 23, 2012
Posts: 6
Thanks for the reply and the detailed advice, it's clarified a few things.

So far we've only played short adventures (maybe up to level 5). My main campaign is going to be far past that but it's going to be a Hafling Rouge & either a Cleric or Sorcer.

My idea is relatively large battles that they assist in (like helping the local guard deal with bandits/rebels) but in such a way that enemies break off to engage them only one or two at a time and always having NPC support. So the battles feel big but the combat is small. 
 
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10 months ago  ::  Aug 11, 2012 - 5:40PM #9
taradusis
Date Joined: Mar 5, 2006
Posts: 1,748
In first ed I used a total HD and HP system. Any challenge where the party faces 2X their total hd (reached by adding the hd of the party and henchmen and pets and familiars) then it's too tough a challenge. If the parties Hp are less than half that of their opponenyts it's too much of a challenge.
I will immediately report any Phishers or Lonely Hearts Scam Artists.
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10 months ago  ::  Aug 11, 2012 - 6:00PM #10
StevenO
Date Joined: Apr 9, 2004
Posts: 14,062
Although it will depend a little on how they are built and what kind of "party" dynamics there are a Rouge and Cleric pair could actually work pretty well.  Either of them could fight passably well (at least if you're throwing weaker encounters at them) and the rogue should be able to cover a lot of the skills you may need while the cleric can handle magic.  I don't know if you figure on any multiclassing but it is something to look into as it can expand versatility in the characters.

Your campaign concept also has some merit and listening to it I'll suggest looking at Heroes of Battle for some ideas of how you could run heroes in a "large battle" type scenario.  Once concern I have is also one of your benefits; I worry a bit about that "NPC support" becoming a crutch on the PCs.
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