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10 months ago ::
Aug 08, 2012 - 10:08PM
#1
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Date Joined:
Apr 23, 2012
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I am relatively new to D&D and my friend & I slightly confused with the Player's Handbook.
My question is two-fold:
1) Do proficiency bonuses (that overlap) stack?
i.e.:
- 1st level Dwarf Cleric starts with Dwarven Weapon Proficiency (which grants proficiency [+2 Atk Bonus] to throwing hammers and warhammers).
- He then takes Dwarven Weapon Training (which grants proficiency to axes and hammers) as his 1st level Feat.
- He chooses a warhammer as his starting weapon. (Warhammer falls under the weapon category/type of hammer.)
~ Does he get +4 Atk Bonus to his melee attacks? or does he only get +2 Atk Bonus?
2) Can you take the same Feat multiple times?
Side-question: Do clerics start out with a holy symbol as one of their starting pieces of equipment?
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10 months ago ::
Aug 08, 2012 - 10:11PM
#2
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1. He has a +2. You are either proficient with a weapon, or you are not.
2. Only if the feat expressly states that you can. The vast majority, you cannot.
3. No, if you want one, you'll need to purchase it (though you don't need it to use any of your implement powers).
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
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10 months ago ::
Aug 08, 2012 - 10:23PM
#3
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Date Joined:
Apr 23, 2012
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1. He has a +2. You are either proficient with a weapon, or you are not.
2. Only if the feat expressly states that you can. The vast majority, you cannot.
3. No, if you want one, you'll need to purchase it (though you don't need it to use any of your implement powers).
Thank you for answering the main two questions. Is there a written source that confirms your answers? (Not interested in making anymore mistakes.)
Why does it say on p. 222 of the PHB that a holy symbol is 10gp (with no stats listed), but later in the book, there is a +1 holy symbol listed for 360gp?
I was intending to purchase a holy symbol as part of the 100gp starting gear limit, but did not care to waste anything on a useless trinket that is simply called "holy symbol".
Is there any difference between the two (aside from price)?
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10 months ago ::
Aug 08, 2012 - 11:02PM
#4
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Date Joined:
Aug 11, 2006
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A +1 holy symbol is a magical one with a +1 Enhancement bonus. The 'plain' holy symbol has none.
Unless you have a specific feature or feat that REQUIRES you to be using a holy symbol, the nonmagical one doesn't do anything. The magical one, like a magical weapon, will improve your attacks used through it.
(I don't think there's anything in the PHB1 that requires the use of a holy symbol, but there is elsewhere.)
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10 months ago ::
Aug 09, 2012 - 4:01AM
#5
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Date Joined:
Jul 11, 2008
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There should be a section in the PHB that states that bonuses of the same type do not stack, so even if 2 feats grant you proficiency, you still only get a 'proficiency' bonus once.
Also, granting proficiency with a weapon and getting the bonus are 2 different things. The feat makes you proficient with the weapon, being proficient with the weapon grants you the proficiency bonus. So both the feats listed make you proficient with the weapon, but you can only be proficient with a weapon once, so one feat is esentially wasted.
Feat 1 Grants Proficiency \
Proficient with weapon -> gives proficiency bonus.
Feat 2 Grants Proficiency /
So you see how the 2 feats basically meld into a single bonus once they get 'down the line'.
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10 months ago ::
Aug 09, 2012 - 11:03AM
#6
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Date Joined:
Dec 10, 2008
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Simple answer - the general rule is that bonuses of the same type never stack unless a specific rule says otherwise, and that's very rare. "Proficiency bonus" is a type of bonus so two proficiency bonuses can't stack. If you have two proficiency bonuses that apply to the same weapon you take the greater of the two bonuses, not both. So in this case you just get a +2.
Player's Handbook describes how bonuses and penalties work on page 275.
And no, in the PH, there is no reason anyone needs a non-magical holy symbol. However, in PH2 and other books there are implement expertise feats and other game elements that would give you bonuses to implement attacks and/or other benefits when using any holy symbol for an implement attack, even if it's not magic
I was confused by this with the first 4e character I made, a Paladin. I kept asking myself, why do they even have mundane holy symbols on the equipment list if they aren't good for anything? Do I need one to do my implement powers? The answer is no. But Wizards DO need an implement (mundane or magical) to take advantage of certain class features (read their section for more info.)
OD&D, 1E and 2E challenged the player.
3E challenged the character, not the player.
Now 4E takes it a step further by challenging a GROUP OF PLAYERS to work together as a TEAM.
That's why I love 4E.
"Your ability to summon a horde of celestial superbeings at will is making my ... BMX skills look a bit redundant."
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10 months ago ::
Aug 09, 2012 - 11:21AM
#7
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Date Joined:
Apr 29, 2006
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Stacking rules aside, the more fundamental reason why proficiency bonuses don't stack is because you can never get more than one proficiency bonuses. Ever.
Feats, abilities, and class features can all grant proficiency with a weapon. But that's not the same thing as a proficiency bonus.
The proficiency bonus is a property inherent of the weapon. In the same way that a weapon can't be extra off-hand or doubly light blade, a weapon only has one proficiency bonus to give. Having proficiency with a weapon simply gives you access to that weapon's proficiency bonus. And as Salla said above, you are either proficient with a weapon or not. Gaining profiency from multiple sources does not provide any additional benefit in the same way that having multiple people flipping a light switch on does not make the light any brighter.
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10 months ago ::
Aug 09, 2012 - 11:40AM
#8
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I was confused by this with the first 4e character I made, a Paladin. I kept asking myself, why do they even have mundane holy symbols on the equipment list if they aren't good for anything?
Technically if you don't have a non-magical holy symbol, you can't use the Enchant Magic Item ritual to make an enchanted one. So there is that. Also Expertise (and other) feats work with non-magical ones.
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10 months ago ::
Aug 09, 2012 - 6:03PM
#9
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Date Joined:
Sep 29, 2009
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There is the Role play aspect of a Divine character wanting to carry a non magical holy symbol as a badge of office or rank.
The sea looks at the stabillity of the mountian and sighs.
The mountian watches the freedom of the sea and cries.
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10 months ago ::
Aug 09, 2012 - 7:29PM
#10
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Date Joined:
Dec 10, 2008
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Stacking rules aside, the more fundamental reason why proficiency bonuses don't stack is because you can never get more than one proficiency bonuses. Ever.
Feats, abilities, and class features can all grant proficiency with a weapon. But that's not the same thing as a proficiency bonus.
The proficiency bonus is a property inherent of the weapon. In the same way that a weapon can't be extra off-hand or doubly light blade, a weapon only has one proficiency bonus to give. Having proficiency with a weapon simply gives you access to that weapon's proficiency bonus. And as Salla said above, you are either proficient with a weapon or not. Gaining profiency from multiple sources does not provide any additional benefit in the same way that having multiple people flipping a light switch on does not make the light any brighter.
Or, you could just say that bonuses of the same type don't stack and not confuse the new player for the sake of being unnecessarily precise. 
(Kind of like how I argue that all magic armor is NOT automatically masterwork in a literal sense, even though practically speaking, it is.) 
OD&D, 1E and 2E challenged the player.
3E challenged the character, not the player.
Now 4E takes it a step further by challenging a GROUP OF PLAYERS to work together as a TEAM.
That's why I love 4E.
"Your ability to summon a horde of celestial superbeings at will is making my ... BMX skills look a bit redundant."
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