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11 months ago ::
Aug 01, 2012 - 7:59PM
#1
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Date Joined:
Jun 27, 2011
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Could anyone help me out?
I have really tried to keep up with what is going on with the 5e development. I really wanted to be fairly involved. But It has proven harder than I thought. I have downloaded the playtest documents, answered the surveys, regularly read Legends & Lore, Rule of Three and other realted articles and Wizards blog posts. I have tried to participate in the forums, but many on here are evidently able to keep up with things better than I am.
My main concern now is that I really don't have an idea where 5e is going. I'm not downing anything here, except humbly admitting my own shortcomings. I thought I knew kind of what was going on, but I'm less confident than ever now. I've been rereading the articles above to maybe start over at square one, but I don't really get the big picture.
So, here's what I see so far as the core game concept. The basic concept of the game is of course still a class based fantasy game, but it seems that more than ever before PC customization will be paramount.
This customization seems to be centered in themes and backgrounds, with the possible exception now of the fighter who progresses instead through the new mechanic of Combat Superiority.
Advancement in the game no longer relates to being able to hit things better, but to be able to do and take more damage.
Another feature of advancement is that players will pick and choose "paths" (my word) through various themes and backgrounds or combat superiority to better define their PC and advanced in ability.
The core mechanic of the game is now the ability check against a DC. This covers just about everthing a PC would do in the game. Some class abilities mayallow modifiers to certain class based abilities. As has been mentioned about some thief abilities.
I'm confused on how hit points work and the new hit die concept. One of the things that has hurt my ability to grasp things is my preconcieved notions from previous editions. And I don't think 5e HD are like previous notions of Hit Die.
I understand spell casters are still basically Vancian, but that they willl have at wills spells of some sort.
It seems like healing is still being worked out, but that the Devs are kind of leaning to a recharge typr of healing, but that may change.
I know there's more to the core game, and if you have additions that might help me I'd really appreciate it. I also understand the idea of modularity, and that more advanced options of all sorts and kinds will be added as we go.
Last thing: the PC generation playtest rules are what they are saying will be out next sometime this month hopefully, is this right?
My only agenda for this thread is to understand where 5e stands so far--what the core concepts of the game are.
Thanks so much for all of your help.
"The worthy GM never purposely kills players' PCs. He presents opportunities for the rash and unthinking players to do that all on their own." --Gary Gygax
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11 months ago ::
Aug 01, 2012 - 8:15PM
#2
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That's actually a question that isn't as easy to answer as you'd think imo. The biggest problem is this: other than the generic 'direction' posts, most of what they're actually after is still up in the air. Most of the rest of what we 'know' is deduced (and not always accurately) from the aformentioned articles, and the occasional Twitter post. We know every class is going to have -some- kind of 'fun mechanic'. We know that Themes are basically packages of feats and...some other assorted stuff (like the Slayer autodamage-on-miss from the playtest packet). Ostensibly you'd be able to mix and match some of the abilities, but whether that ever gets 'official' support is kinna in the air and open to guessing. We know that at one time, there is supposed to be 'every class from a PHB1'. Now, how far back that goes is open to interpretation (and makes the statement unreliable imo). Assassin may be a class, but I -highly- doubt its -anything- like 1e's assassin -- they pulled that one for a reason, and that reason hasn't vanished yet (yay Moral Majority). The main 'goals' are to bring everyone to the table and make modular options, sorta like a 'dial' of 'choose your complexity' ranging from OldSchool to OMGWTFSOMANYOPTIONS!. Again, though...that's just a goal and, like any goal in a playtest, is completely subject to change. But it's one I think they'll focus on pretty well as much as they can. Wizards are Vancian, but other casting classes (like warlock, or sorceror) will use other casting styles. What styles they are and how they look...we don't know yet. The new HD and the old HD are only similar in the fact that your number is HD is equal to your level. Unlike before, however, you can 'spend' HD for healing with the assistance of a healing kit. This is to help relieve the pressure of MUST HAVE CLERIC. Presently, it's a random roll for each hit die and there's a lot of contention about that, so we'll have to see how it evolves in the future. But for now, that's what it is. So if you're level 3, you have 3 HD (just like before), and you have 3 dice of daily out-of-combat self-applied healing with a healer's kit. The healing paradigm is still -very- much in the air. Bounded Accuracy is a goal. I can't explain it well, but it's basically 'limiting numbers to a small range'. As an OS player, you'd recognize the old AC values as Bounded (10 to -10). This means things like 'the fighter wont get a higher chance to hit (a lower Thac0 in OS terms) every level'. How it bears out in practice...again, we'll just have to see. Character customization, I'm afraid, is here to stay and is only going to get more and more involved. I don't see that trend changing for a while. To go with that, unique mechanics will be more and more prevalent...in theory. And finally, a new playtest packet is to come out at GenCon, and no doubt on the web shortly thereafter (if not that day). Hope that helps some! 
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11 months ago ::
Aug 01, 2012 - 8:17PM
#3
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Date Joined:
Nov 19, 2001
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Hit die are what are used for out of combat healing mostly. Characters get more hit points as they lvl (but this is defined my class and not rolling. When you are not in combat someone trained in using a heal kit can use one use of the kit to allow you to roll a hit dice and heal that much.
It actually sounds like you have everything else down. Cleric's and Wizards will probably be the only magic classes to use Vancian and Clerics are spontanious casters meaning when they cast a spell they just mark off that lvl or a higher lvl spell per day slot off but they can cast any spell they have prepared as many times as they have slots available.
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11 months ago ::
Aug 01, 2012 - 8:24PM
#4
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Date Joined:
May 24, 2012
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The game is supposed to be rules basic with the ability to add rules as modules. Not sure I saw that in the OP.
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11 months ago ::
Aug 01, 2012 - 9:09PM
#5
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Date Joined:
Nov 30, 2010
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IMO, the developers don't even know what direction to take with the game, part of them seems to want to try new stuff, but are so afraid of people that just want the old stuff all over again. Designer A: Why not? It's clever, it's unexpected. Designer B: But that's not why people play D&D. Clever things make people feel stupid, and unexpected things make them feel scared. D&D players don't want anything original. They wanna see the play the same thing they've played a thousand times before. This is a problem, potential new players aren't intersted on D&D at all, they see it as a old outdated game that is generic and boring, former D&D players want to play the exact same game that they played for the last 30 years...
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11 months ago ::
Aug 01, 2012 - 9:38PM
#6
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Date Joined:
Oct 11, 2009
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Hit die are what are used for out of combat healing mostly. Characters get more hit points as they lvl (but this is defined my class and not rolling. When you are not in combat someone trained in using a heal kit can use one use of the kit to allow you to roll a hit dice and heal that much.
It actually sounds like you have everything else down. Cleric's and Wizards will probably be the only magic classes to use Vancian and Clerics are spontanious casters meaning when they cast a spell they just mark off that lvl or a higher lvl spell per day slot off but they can cast any spell they have prepared as many times as they have slots available.
Actually, at each level gain, you roll your Hit Die and add the result to your max HP (or add your CON Mod, if it is greater than your Hit Die roll result).
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11 months ago ::
Aug 01, 2012 - 10:59PM
#7
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Date Joined:
May 10, 2012
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Designer A: Why not? It's clever, it's unexpected.
Designer B: But that's not why people play D&D. Clever things make people feel stupid, and unexpected things make them feel scared. D&D players don't want anything original. They wanna see the play the same thing they've played a thousand times before.
Attention, McNeal. Your unexpected marriage plan scares us. You stole our hearts as a single female lawyer, and so shall you remain -- or else!
This is a problem, potential new players aren't intersted on D&D at all, they see it as a old outdated game that is generic and boring, former D&D players want to play the exact same game that they played for the last 30 years...
How do you know that potential players see it as being "old" and "outdated"? D&D is still by far the best known RPG around and people who haven't played it likely haven't played any RPG and thus have absolutely no frame of reference at all. I started playing two years ago and at that time didn't realize how old it was it or know how many iterations there had been or what the differences between them were. I also couldn't name a single alternative game. So I find it very hard to believe that most people who haven't played D&D would have any strong opinion about how "old" its mechanics are.
As long as it has nice, colorful production values like 4E I don't think noobies will have a problem giving it a fair shake. The Players Handbook is going to be anyone's first impression and if it looks new and modern people will be very comfortable treating the game as such; that was certainly the case for me when I first looked through 4E's PHB. As for the mechanics, the key will be that they are quick and easy to learn, not how original they are because new players will have no clue what is original and what has been around for decades.
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11 months ago ::
Aug 01, 2012 - 11:12PM
#8
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Date Joined:
Jun 11, 2012
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The most important thing to remember after all the the different answers you will likely recieve is that this is a playtest. The public has only seen one release, plus a fighter update. The core of the game has been tweaked based off of feedback from the open group and friends and family. As a member of both, I am excited about the future direction of the game. Noone will ever agree on the perfect game, but with enough opinion from he public, and a patient playtest, I think this game can be great again.
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11 months ago ::
Aug 01, 2012 - 11:29PM
#9
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Date Joined:
Jun 27, 2011
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Thanks everyone, it's comforting to know that some of my confusion isn't self imposed, but due to alot still being uncertain. Which is fine as we're really still early in the development process--I just don't want to make foolish assumptions.
So, I think I understand the "idea" behind HD a little better. Though I am still unclear if a PC will roll hit points per level, or it will be assigned by class. In other words each class will gain a set number of HP per level. But the new concept with HD is related to healing (which right now is limited based on available healing kits, though I heard that might change).
And I appreciate the clarification on spellcasting choices. Spellcasting will basically vary by either class or choice, maybe by theme or background--no? But the basic core Wizard is designed to be vancian and clerics kind of slot based vancian as mentioned above.
I'm still not too clear on bounded accuracy and it's implications though. Do we know if as mentioned above the traditional d20 combat system still holds? In other words, if it isn't harder to hit say an well armored orc than a dragon, but that the dragon has more hp then AC may not exceed a certain point, right? And I can't quite get my head around everyone being able to hit something as well as everybody else--with the exception now of the combat superiority of the fighter. So if there are no assumptions that you get better at hitting things as you level then clerics, hit as well as MUs as well as thieves. Right?
"The worthy GM never purposely kills players' PCs. He presents opportunities for the rash and unthinking players to do that all on their own." --Gary Gygax
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11 months ago ::
Aug 01, 2012 - 11:54PM
#10
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Date Joined:
Nov 19, 2001
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Thanks everyone, it's comforting to know that some of my confusion isn't self imposed, but due to alot still being uncertain. Which is fine as we're really still early in the development process--I just don't want to make foolish assumptions.
So, I think I understand the "idea" behind HD a little better. Though I am still unclear if a PC will roll hit points per level, or it will be assigned by class. In other words each class will gain a set number of HP per level. But the new concept with HD is related to healing (which right now is limited based on available healing kits, though I heard that might change).
And I appreciate the clarification on spellcasting choices. Spellcasting will basically vary by either class or choice, maybe by theme or background--no? But the basic core Wizard is designed to be vancian and clerics kind of slot based vancian as mentioned above.
I'm still not too clear on bounded accuracy and it's implications though. Do we know if as mentioned above the traditional d20 combat system still holds? In other words, if it isn't harder to hit say an well armored orc than a dragon, but that the dragon has more hp then AC may not exceed a certain point, right? And I can't quite get my head around everyone being able to hit something as well as everybody else--with the exception now of the combat superiority of the fighter. So if there are no assumptions that you get better at hitting things as you level then clerics, hit as well as MUs as well as thieves. Right?
With bounded accuracy you just won't automatically get better at hitting with leveling. The fighter in the playtest does appear to have a +1 to hit that the other classes don't have.
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