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Switch to Forum Live View Looking for a fumble table
10 months ago  ::  Aug 04, 2012 - 11:15AM #11
RedSiegfried
Date Joined: Dec 10, 2008
Posts: 1,909

Aug 3, 2012 -- 12:25PM, mattador666 wrote:

Aug 2, 2012 -- 7:58PM, Felorn wrote:

Funny story, we had a paladin kill a rogue on accident like this.




I'm sure the rogue thought it was hilarious.



And I'm sure the Paladin found it really fun too. 

I've played D&D for over 30 years and without exception, the only people I've ever played with who want to use critical fumble tables are DMs.  And without exception, I've busted EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM at least once for not rolling fumbles when the monsters critical miss.  Reactions have ranged from "Oops, sorry, I forgot," to "If you don't like it get the hell out of my game," and everything in between.  These are some of the same DMs who like play games with insanity mechanics because it gives them more than one way to kill a PC beyond physical damage and their justification for that is that it's "realistic."

The last game I played where the DM insisted on using them, I explained why critical miss tables are not fun for me and persuaded him to allow any of us to "opt out" of the rule.  That was cool and I appreciated his flexibility ... until at the next session where he changed his mind and told me "that's the way we do it here."

I bowed out of the group the next day.

OD&D, 1E and 2E challenged the player. 
3E challenged the character, not the player. 
Now 4E takes it a step further by challenging a GROUP OF PLAYERS to work together as a TEAM. 
That's why I love 4E.

"Your ability to summon a horde of celestial superbeings at will is making my ... BMX skills look a bit redundant."
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10 months ago  ::  Aug 04, 2012 - 3:58PM #12
Felorn
Date Joined: Sep 2, 2011
Posts: 422

Aug 3, 2012 -- 12:25PM, mattador666 wrote:

Aug 2, 2012 -- 7:58PM, Felorn wrote:

Funny story, we had a paladin kill a rogue on accident like this.




I'm sure the rogue thought it was hilarious.




He didn't at first.



“The oldest and strongest emotion of mankind is fear.” - H. P. Lovecraft

Games I Play:
- D&D 4e
- D&D 3.5
- AD&D 2e
- Pathfinder
- Call of Cthulhu
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10 months ago  ::  Aug 04, 2012 - 3:59PM #13
Felorn
Date Joined: Sep 2, 2011
Posts: 422

Aug 4, 2012 -- 11:15AM, RedSiegfried wrote:

Aug 3, 2012 -- 12:25PM, mattador666 wrote:

Aug 2, 2012 -- 7:58PM, Felorn wrote:

Funny story, we had a paladin kill a rogue on accident like this.




I'm sure the rogue thought it was hilarious.



And I'm sure the Paladin found it really fun too. 

I've played D&D for over 30 years and without exception, the only people I've ever played with who want to use critical fumble tables are DMs.  And without exception, I've busted EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM at least once for not rolling fumbles when the monsters critical miss.  Reactions have ranged from "Oops, sorry, I forgot," to "If you don't like it get the hell out of my game," and everything in between.  These are some of the same DMs who like play games with insanity mechanics because it gives them more than one way to kill a PC beyond physical damage and their justification for that is that it's "realistic."

The last game I played where the DM insisted on using them, I explained why critical miss tables are not fun for me and persuaded him to allow any of us to "opt out" of the rule.  That was cool and I appreciated his flexibility ... until at the next session where he changed his mind and told me "that's the way we do it here."

I bowed out of the group the next day.



But of course the paladin thought it was funny.



“The oldest and strongest emotion of mankind is fear.” - H. P. Lovecraft

Games I Play:
- D&D 4e
- D&D 3.5
- AD&D 2e
- Pathfinder
- Call of Cthulhu
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10 months ago  ::  Aug 04, 2012 - 6:01PM #14
Fireclave
Date Joined: Apr 29, 2006
Posts: 2,149

Aug 4, 2012 -- 11:15AM, RedSiegfried wrote:

Beautiful.  The only change I would make would be on result 20 which would be "Roll again and change the result to a natural 1."



Well, the idea was that you roll again on the chart, so...

Thinking about creating a race for 4e?  Make things a lil' easier on yourself by reading my Race Mechanic Creation Guide first.
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10 months ago  ::  Aug 06, 2012 - 11:12PM #15
kitsunegami
Date Joined: Oct 3, 2008
Posts: 1,451

The guy who taught us to play D&D 4e, after playing in my HackMaster 4e game for a while, decided to institue a fumble table, but had us confirm our fumbles before applying the potentially very nasty effects. Confirmation involved rolling the attack again: if you hit, it's a normal miss; if you miss again, it's a fumble and you now roll on the fumble table. It was a blast – especially when the rogue, who can normally roll high enough to hit, even on a fumble, managed to confirm a fumble and ended up stabbing the mage who had once again rushed into melee like an idiot. Good times. 8o) As of yet we haven't seen every result on the table so we players don't know its exact contents so I doubt he'd be willing to post it here.




My favorite crit/fumble system is in HackMaster Basic. One thing you must know is that HM5e uses opposed rolls almost exclusively. In combat both players roll a d20 and add the appropriate modifier; tie goes to the defender. That means both players can crit or fumble.


If the attacker crits (and rolls higher; nat 20 auto-hits regardless) damage is doubled as is common, but if the defender crits he gets to make a counter attack. We've seen attacks go back and forth several times in the same second* – parry, reposte, parry, reposte, ... – until a solid attack finally got through. On a Near Perfect Defense (defender wins with a nat 19), you get to make a free attack with a dagger or smaller weapon, or headbutt, knee to the groin, or however else you want to flavor it, for weapon damage or 2(d4p-2) ("p" means the die penetrates so you can roll more than the max; I hit for 30+ damage with 4d4 once; the hit player was unhappy *G*). If both players roll nat 20s, the higher total wins.


* Combat in HM5e is in pseudo-real time instead of rounds. Everyone can act on every second, but attacks are limited by weapon speed as long as you are engaged.


If either player rolls a nat 1 and has the lowest result, it's a fumble and the other player gets to make a free attack on the next second.


The requirement that the nat 20 must also be the highest result to be a crit, and nat 1 must be the lowest to be a fumble, makes crits and fumbles occur slightly less than the standard 5% of the time, and I like that a lot better.


The newly released HackMaster Player's Handbook 5e adds a proper fumble table and splices it into Basic's system I just described, but our group voted unanimously to keep going with the simpler yet highly fun and exciting Basic system.


After I typed that, and while I waited for our Internet to come back up (it goes out every time the wind blows the lines; doesn't matter if we have Cable or DSL), I grabbed our delicious new PHB (there is nothing like the smell of leather) to see how its fumble table compared to the previewed one in an issue of Knights of the Dinner Table, and made a surprising discovery: it doesn't have one. So that paragaph should read:


An issue of Knights of the Dinner Table added a proper fumble table and spliced it into Basic's system I just described, but our group voted unanimously to keep going with the simpler yet highly fun and exciting Basic system.

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10 months ago  ::  Aug 06, 2012 - 11:22PM #16
ORC_Chaos
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Date Joined: Sep 4, 2006
Posts: 2,257
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