|
10 months ago ::
Jul 30, 2012 - 3:11PM
#1
|
Date Joined:
Mar 20, 2007
|
So as DM, the MM is kind of your little black book of goodies. Unfortunately (and fortunately), they are getting entranced by the art of the MM books and want to play D&D as the monsters. I am well aware that D&D is not supposed to be run where the PC's are monsters, but what if? Is there work done by anyone to achieve such a goal?
I have slightly started the process for myself simply by taking level 6-10 creatures, leveling them up to level 10 and then making sure I have a couple of each role: Soldier, Brute, Controller, Artillery, Lurker and Skirmisher. I only used MM1 as I don't desire to have different power levels among players, I mean monsters... whatever. The PC Monsters (now PCM's) would go against other monsters and not actually PC's. In this way I hope to balance it a little and give the PCM's a fighting chance.
Then there is the task of leveling them up which I have yet to address. Damage and to-hit are easy enough, but what do I do to reward leveling up? Add feats slots? New powers? (Probably steal powers from more powerful monsters with a little reflavoring.) A tree for each role with damage upgrades, new powers and feat-like features? Any other thoughts?
A fine example of a PCM I would probably use is the Angel of Valor (MM1 pg.16). It has fun options, an encounter power and is intelligent enough to work with others. The flying won't be too broken as it is primarily a melee attacker.
Intelligence and language is key so I have not done any beasts.
This is a rather big endevor that may never actually come to fruition, but I have high hopes. Any thoughts, ideas or examples of this already being done would be much appreciated. Thank you.
|
|
|
|
10 months ago ::
Jul 30, 2012 - 3:19PM
#2
|
Date Joined:
Jul 21, 2004
|
I wouldn't worry about rewards for levelling up. That can come later, and can be in the form of feats, or powers from other, similar creatures.
I think this could work fine, but you'll need to keep an eye on it, as it's not what the game assumes. If you want a game that's more likely to work without tweaking, then just reflavor normal characters to be the monsters the players are interested in. There's no reason a human fighter, say, can't be played as an angel, as is.
[N]o difference is less easily overcome than the difference of opinion about semi-abstract questions. - L. Tolstoy
|
|
|
|
10 months ago ::
Jul 30, 2012 - 3:30PM
#3
|
Date Joined:
Mar 20, 2007
|
I wouldn't worry about rewards for levelling up. That can come later, and can be in the form of feats, or powers from other, similar creatures.
I think this could work fine, but you'll need to keep an eye on it, as it's not what the game assumes. If you want a game that's more likely to work without tweaking, then just reflavor normal characters to be the monsters the players are interested in. There's no reason a human fighter, say, can't be played as an angel, as is.
I guess that is an option too. Just refluff the heck out of the races. Never thought of that. I guess anything to maximize the fun of the game!
|
|
|
|
10 months ago ::
Jul 30, 2012 - 3:32PM
#4
|
Date Joined:
Mar 20, 2007
|
I will try to post the results of the PCm's at some point. I am borderline creating a new game using The MM as the PHB. Oh well.
|
|
|
|
10 months ago ::
Jul 30, 2012 - 3:34PM
#5
|
Date Joined:
Jul 21, 2004
|
I wouldn't worry about rewards for levelling up. That can come later, and can be in the form of feats, or powers from other, similar creatures.
I think this could work fine, but you'll need to keep an eye on it, as it's not what the game assumes. If you want a game that's more likely to work without tweaking, then just reflavor normal characters to be the monsters the players are interested in. There's no reason a human fighter, say, can't be played as an angel, as is.
I guess that is an option too. Just refluff the heck out of the races. Never thought of that. I guess anything to maximize the fun of the game!
At higher levels there are options for making dragonborn more dragonic, tieflings more diabolic, shifters more lycanthropic, devas more angelic, minotaurs more... bovic? If you're up for it, you can make those options available at any level you want. There are already rules for playing gnolls and at least a little support for playing orcs, goblins, kobolds and the like. And don't forget the game has three different ways to play a vampire.
[N]o difference is less easily overcome than the difference of opinion about semi-abstract questions. - L. Tolstoy
|
|
|
|
10 months ago ::
Jul 30, 2012 - 6:34PM
#6
|
Date Joined:
Aug 19, 2007
|
Minotaurs, kobolds and gnolls have official racial writeups, and most of the other humanoids are also statted out to be playable with DM permission.
From a general perspective, a decent approximation of almost any Medium/Small humanoid monster can probably be constructed by cobbling together different elements of current player races and classes...
For example, tacking the pixie's racial flight (and accompanying altitude limit) onto another race probably won't unbalance the game too much, particularly if there's a feat cost (or expecially a specific paragon path) required. And, as Centauri suggested, there are already a lot of options to make some of the current PC races more iconic of their particular race, so it's probably going to be fairly simple to just scratch off the racial requirements of those abilities and allow them for other races.
What you could also do is something like what the game devs have done with some of the races - racial powers available at certain levels in place of class powers, or perhaps a complete list of "monster class" powers for each individual character taken from one or more character classes (and modified to work well with that character's primary abilities/weapon/implement/etc) that best represent the powers of a particular monster from the MM.
As a random thought, you could probably reflavor creature auras as stances that create a zone centered around the character, or something to that effect.
I'd ask your player which monster races they'd like to play, and then see about working out how to create them by modifying current PC material.
Spoiler:
Show
I am the Magic Man.
(Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.)
I am the Lawnmower Man.
(I AM GOD HERE!)
I am the Skull God.
(Koo Koo Ka Choo)
There are reasons they call me Mad...
|
|
|
|
10 months ago ::
Jul 31, 2012 - 2:00AM
#7
|
Date Joined:
May 14, 2010
|
Pay attention to the racials they get. There are lots of races already broken down to just the adjustments.
Take kobold though. That shift as a minor action can be op when at-will. Consider making it an encounter though, and it isn't too bad. Same thing with the goblin racial. Kenku, warforged, mul, are fine as they are.
|
|
|
|
10 months ago ::
Jul 31, 2012 - 5:10AM
#8
|
Date Joined:
Mar 10, 2011
|
Third Edition had support for this right out of the box. So, it's not a new or alien idea in D&D  I think some of the same cautions go for monsters in the party, or all-monster parties, as would go for evil characters or parties: this is rarely as fun as it sounds over the long haul, especially for the DM, and depends on players aiming a little higher than being a collection of cool loners who destroy everything in sight, and requires a lot more work from the DM to keep the players motivated after the novelty wears off. I personally would find DMing more than one monster PC to be something that stands precariously balanced on the edge of playing a toon game at a furry convention: a very different sort of fantasy world, and not really my cup of tea. (I'm a stick-in-the-mud, though, and your mileage may vary.) With monsters, there is (or was, in 3rd Edition) an added problem of many monsters being quite suitable for opponents for the PCs to throw dice at, but not especially well-balanced as PCs... the result being that munchkins love to try to pick up the broken ones to exploit. If your group is looking at the numbers and seeing a way to Win D&D Forever, you are likely in for a difficult time with keeping the game focused and in control. In that case, you might just be better off letting them go wild on a very short throw-away campaign where they can can build munchkin monstrosities to mow down millions of minions until they get bored, to just let them get it out of their system. If your group just finds the cool artwork a great inspiration for their imagination, I would agree that you will get the most mileage out of letting them change the descriptions of the existing, standard PC races into something that looks a little more exotic and interesting in the fluff text and pictures, but is mechanically familiar and balanced.
New DM Tips
Show
- Trying to solve out-of-game problems (like cheating, bad attitudes, or poor sportsmanship) with in-game solutions will almost always result in failure, and will probably make matters worse.
- Gun Safety Rule #5: Never point the gun at anything you don't intend to destroy. (Never introduce a character, PC, NPC, Villain, or fate of the world into even the possibility of a deadly combat or other dangerous situation, unless you are prepared to destroy it instantly and completely forever.)
- Know your group's character sheets, and check them over carefully. You don't want surprises, but, more importantly, they are a gold mine of ideas!
- "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." It's a problem if the players aren't having fun and it interferes with a DM's ability to run the game effectively; if it's not a problem, 'fixing' at best does little to help, and at worst causes problems that didn't exist before.
- "Hulk Smash" characters are a bad match for open-ended exploration in crowds of civilians; get them out of civilization where they can break things and kill monsters in peace.
- Success is not necessarily the same thing as killing an opponent. Failure is not necessarily the same thing as dying.
- Failure is always an option. And it's a fine option, too, as long as failure is interesting, entertaining, and fun!
"Broken or not, unbalanced or not, if something seems to be preventing the game from being enjoyable, something has to give: either that thing, or other aspects of the game, or your idea of what's enjoyable." - Centauri
|
|
|
|
10 months ago ::
Jul 31, 2012 - 8:52AM
#9
|
Date Joined:
Jul 21, 2004
|
With monsters, there is (or was, in 3rd Edition) an added problem of many monsters being quite suitable for opponents for the PCs to throw dice at, but not especially well-balanced as PCs... the result being that munchkins love to try to pick up the broken ones to exploit. If your group is looking at the numbers and seeing a way to Win D&D Forever, you are likely in for a difficult time with keeping the game focused and in control. In that case, you might just be better off letting them go wild on a very short throw-away campaign where they can can build munchkin monstrosities to mow down millions of minions until they get bored, to just let them get it out of their system.
The main problem with 3.5 was having groups with very disparate power levels. It became hard to challenge a group with straightforward combat, because what would be a challenge for a few of the members would take out the other members with collateral damage alone.
In 4th Edition, PCs are more balanced. If they're tough, then it's likely the whole party is tough, and you can ramp up the challenge accordingly. If this DM is suggesting that everyone in the group play a monster, then it should be possible to keep them pretty balanced. But, as it's not what the game was designed for, it might cause some issues. As a matter of fact, the section in the Monster Manual that lists monster stats for PC use specifically advises caution.
[N]o difference is less easily overcome than the difference of opinion about semi-abstract questions. - L. Tolstoy
|
|
|
|
10 months ago ::
Jul 31, 2012 - 4:01PM
#10
|
Date Joined:
Jan 23, 2008
|
As a matter of fact, the section in the Monster Manual that lists monster stats for PC use specifically advises caution.
But then, if they let caution stop them from acting, they probably wouldn't have made for good adventurers. 
|
|
|
