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11 months ago ::
Aug 02, 2012 - 10:47AM
#21
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Date Joined:
Aug 11, 2006
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I can't think of any other major games that use a square tile map and impose a cost multiplier on diagonal movement. Admittedly, my knowledge of board and computer strategy games and RPGs isn't comprehensive, and tile-based computer games aren't as common now, but all of the ones I've played treated a diagonal move the same as a vertical or horizontal one.
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11 months ago ::
Aug 02, 2012 - 11:19AM
#22
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Date Joined:
Jun 15, 2004
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I can't think of any other major games that use a square tile map and impose a cost multiplier on diagonal movement.
Restricting or Disallowing diagonal movement is effectively acting as a cost multiplier. There are games that do this. Examples: Star War miniatures and Monsterpocalypse.
Do you know of very many other major games that allow diagonal movement on a square grid without a cost increase? HeroClix is one example, but I was curious of others.
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11 months ago ::
Aug 02, 2012 - 11:24AM
#23
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Date Joined:
Jul 21, 2004
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I was just refreshing my memory of Mutant Chronicles: Seige of the Citadel, a cheesy but very fun game from 1993 ( boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/1621/mutant-...). I was delighted to be reminded that even this game counted diagonals as single steps. Surely the 1-2-1 counting wasn't new with D&D 3.5. I wonder if there was a lot of excitement when it was announced that this movement rule was going to be implemented. By the way, I badly fouled up my math earlier. 1-2-1 diagonals are actually accurate to either 6% or 1% after the first square. That's pretty accurate, actually. But, since this is a game and not an architecture class, I'm not sure the accuracy is worth it. Yes, it's easy to figure out once one knows the rule, but throughout my experience with 3.5, I've regularly seen the game grind to a halt as someone corrects or double-checks someone else on this point.
[N]o difference is less easily overcome than the difference of opinion about semi-abstract questions. - L. Tolstoy
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11 months ago ::
Aug 02, 2012 - 12:17PM
#24
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Date Joined:
Aug 11, 2006
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> Do you know of very many other major games that allow diagonal movement on a
> square grid without a cost increase?
Thinking back to old RPG and TBS games on the computer - the ones that actually used grids - all of the ones I can think of treated a square as a square, regardless of whether it was along a diagonal.
Board game-wise... same thing. Granted, individual pieces usually have their own movement rules, but I don't remember any that allowed diagonal movement while imposing a general "oh yeah, it costs more".
--
IIRC, it *was* a new rule with 3E because the game before that had previously assumed a gridless measuring-inches-with-a-tape approach (if you bothered), as had been the model from the beginning. 3E was when the transition to a grid as the default occurred.
EDIT: Ah, wait - didn't the old Gold Box D&D games impose an extra cost for diagonal movement? I'm not actually sure now, but they might have done so. Of course, they were trying to approximate the measure-by-inches with a grid, so...
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11 months ago ::
Aug 02, 2012 - 12:33PM
#25
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Date Joined:
Jul 21, 2004
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Also, while 1-2-1 is easy for a straight diagonal, I found it really slowed things down when the path was some kind of curve. Players (usually several of them at the same time) carefully kept track of how many diagonals had been moved, which became surprisingly taxing if there were stretches of orthogonals in between. You were basically counting two things at the same time.
"Ok, ONE, two, three, FOUR-FIVE, six, seven, EIGHT, NINE, no wait, NINE-TEN. Wait, start over...."
[N]o difference is less easily overcome than the difference of opinion about semi-abstract questions. - L. Tolstoy
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11 months ago ::
Aug 02, 2012 - 12:36PM
#26
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Date Joined:
Jun 16, 2012
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... since this is a game and not an architecture class, I'm not sure the accuracy is worth it.
Well put.
We stick with hex grids, they are naturally efficient for movement in all directions. If it something that seems important, we will measure things out. All in all, though, we would rather just hand-wave the specifics of distance and go with what flows naturally than interrupt the flow of the game with mathematics.
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11 months ago ::
Aug 02, 2012 - 12:48PM
#27
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Date Joined:
Jul 21, 2004
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... since this is a game and not an architecture class, I'm not sure the accuracy is worth it.
Well put.
We stick with hex grids, they are naturally efficient for movement in all directions. If it something that seems important, we will measure things out. All in all, though, we would rather just hand-wave the specifics of distance and go with what flows naturally than interrupt the flow of the game with mathematics.
I imagine there's also this feeling that one never knows what details might matter. I mean what if someone needs to get out of a room quickly and can go from the middle through the room in the corner or the door on the wall. The door in the wall is closer in 1-2-1, but not in 1-1. Some might say that 1-1 takes away tactical choices. But if it does it takes away so few that I don't think many people notice.
Frankly, I think the same thing results from the use of the grid. We stare at a board position like it's a chess game, looking for traps and things to exploit, when usually they're not there anyway, or they are but one square over another doesn't make a huge amount of difference. But there appear to be possibilities, so we spend game time looking for them. I guess they're found often enough that using the grid seems like it's rewarded for that reason. There are reasons to use a grid, but I don't think the potential for cool possibilities is one of them.
[N]o difference is less easily overcome than the difference of opinion about semi-abstract questions. - L. Tolstoy
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11 months ago ::
Aug 02, 2012 - 1:38PM
#28
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Date Joined:
Jun 15, 2004
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-- IIRC, it *was* a new rule with 3E because the game before that had previously assumed a gridless measuring-inches-with-a-tape approach (if you bothered)
- 1e actually provided rules for gridded combat, and recommended using a grid when miniatures were used.
- Diagonal movement wasn't discussed.
- Although the various 1e groups I played with always used a grid when miniatures were used, it wasn't mandatory.
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11 months ago ::
Aug 05, 2012 - 1:59PM
#29
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Date Joined:
Aug 30, 2007
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-- IIRC, it *was* a new rule with 3E because the game before that had previously assumed a gridless measuring-inches-with-a-tape approach (if you bothered)
- 1e actually provided rules for gridded combat, and recommended using a grid when miniatures were used.
- Diagonal movement wasn't discussed.
- Although the various 1e groups I played with always used a grid when miniatures were used, it wasn't mandatory.
2e Players Option also included lots of details for playing with a grid. I think it may have included the 1-2-1 rule but I'm not sure, I'd have to check on that.
Owner and Proprietor of the House of Trolls.
God of ownership and possession.
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11 months ago ::
Aug 05, 2012 - 2:26PM
#30
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Date Joined:
Jun 12, 2009
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Star wars minis and RPG uses double cost.
We summoned a devil once. All we used was the D&D books, too. It was pretty kwazy.
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then why do you care? 
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i'm curious
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Whaaaaaat?!??
Wow...way to waste perfectly good potential slaves.
Er...no wait I mean..uh...something not evil!
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First, an experience from a game I played in a few years back. Our DM didn't like 3.5 as a whole but liked parts of it. So he hands us a big ass rules packet for his modified FR campaign, complete with quotes from important NPC's on the front. I can't remember most of the HRs, just that some how gods like Cyric and Bhaal existed at the same time, despite the obvious problems there. In the end the game became a problem more because of the railroading than the HRs, but it ended with this classic line, after our ranger tried to disarm the strange woman following us WITH HIS BOW: DM: You just killed (insert random noble sounding name here) JP: Was she important? Jack: Dude, she's quoted on the front of the rules packet!
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Cut the last encounter on your way out after dealing with the Darth. He's the BBEG. Treat him as such. Play up that Darth Revan is THAT much of a badarse. When the shuttle landed, I had no less than 13 JEDI MASTERS step off the shuttle. The PCs were slack-jawed. After the meetup with Bastila (as she's carrying Revan's body), only TWO jedi masters remained with her. Let me tell you, the player whining about not getting to fight Revan himself shut up pretty quickly when he saw that.
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1. Cleric cast protection from fire on Tank.
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3. Wizard cast fireball and blows them up.
4. ???
5. Profit
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