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11 months ago ::
Jul 31, 2012 - 7:28AM
#21
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Date Joined:
Jun 21, 2012
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I picked the 1st burst spell that, as a cleric I gained, as an example - Moment of Glory of the discussion regarding being able to use burst or blast spells even when there is no aparent targets in an area. I didn't pick it to discuss its sustain effect. I should have picked Hymm of Resurgence instead.
Being new to D&D 4e I am wanting to know if I can use powers like Hymm of Resurgence that have a Hit effect but also a seperate general power Effect to make use of the seperate general power Effect out of combat.
It seems most posters say yes you can use powers to gain their beneficial general Effect description without having to specifically hit or attack a target at the DMs discretion.
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11 months ago ::
Jul 31, 2012 - 7:29AM
#22
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Date Joined:
Jun 30, 2008
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Moment of glory can only last 5 minutes or until a rest, whichever is shorter, like Mand12 said. It can last through an entire lair assault, but not 5 different encounters.
I wouldn't have that much of a problem with a player using moment of glory before combat starts mainly because its a daily. They are using up a daily and risking it if combat doesn't start right away or they get stunned/dazed at the beginning or something. The bigger issues is encounter and at will attack and utiltity powers that automatically grant temp hitpoints. As a DM I would discourage using them precombat even though RAW for some of them it works.
My bag of rats rule if I ever DM 4E will be in my opinion your PCs honestly believe their is a potential threat for a power like brand of the sun to work. If we have been fightly invisible enemies than yeah go ahead and attack a square, but not if you stepped on a trap while walking down a random hallway and a PC wants a save against ongoing damage.
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10 months ago ::
Aug 19, 2012 - 9:42AM
#23
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Date Joined:
Aug 19, 2012
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I have a dispute with the reasoning that the target must be a credible threat in order for the power to function. If this were to be true, then powers would only ever be able to target enemies. "Deep Freeze" a swordmage daily attack, is target of one creature. Creature includes allies and self, self is a creature. The very existence of being able to target allies with an attack spell begs for the ability to perform the attack in a reduced capacity. I feel it is quite absurd to expect a character to swing full strength at themself or an ally. I feel that a good resolution might be to allow the damage to be reduced to the minimum possible. Deep Freeze rolls damage of 2Weapon plus Int, minimum damage would be 1 + 1 + Int mod. An int of 18 would make the minimum damage equal 6 hit points, quite acceptable in order to be able to stick that effect onto yourself and then use the Ensnarement mark to punish enemies. It's also quite acceptable in order to form a cold zone of punishment around an ally that doesn't do melee very well. What do people think of using this minimum damage idea to target self with a power?
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10 months ago ::
Aug 19, 2012 - 9:52AM
#24
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Date Joined:
Oct 28, 2010
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It's a house rule. It borders on bag of rats. It's entirely up to you if you want to use it, but I wouldn't.
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10 months ago ::
Aug 19, 2012 - 7:06PM
#25
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I have a dispute with the reasoning that the target must be a credible threat in order for the power to function. If this were to be true, then powers would only ever be able to target enemies.
"Deep Freeze" a swordmage daily attack, is target of one creature. Creature includes allies and self, self is a creature. The very existence of being able to target allies with an attack spell begs for the ability to perform the attack in a reduced capacity. I feel it is quite absurd to expect a character to swing full strength at themself or an ally.
I feel that a good resolution might be to allow the damage to be reduced to the minimum possible. Deep Freeze rolls damage of 2Weapon plus Int, minimum damage would be 1 + 1 + Int mod. An int of 18 would make the minimum damage equal 6 hit points, quite acceptable in order to be able to stick that effect onto yourself and then use the Ensnarement mark to punish enemies. It's also quite acceptable in order to form a cold zone of punishment around an ally that doesn't do melee very well.
What do people think of using this minimum damage idea to target self with a power?
If powers were only ever able to target enemies, then a Dominated character could never be told to attack their allies. You have to think of all consequences of a houserule when you set one up. If you create this houserule, then your players are going to expect to be able to continue "pulling their punches" when they are told to attack their allies as well.
The better houserule would be "Don't attack your allies". Period. D&D 4e is not designed to work as PvP, so don't try to make it work as PvP. If the party Warlord wants to use a power which gives a buff to his allies but there are no enemies nearby, he can attack himself and deal damage as normal. That's the "drawback" of wanting to help your allies when you have no enemies nearby.
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10 months ago ::
Aug 19, 2012 - 9:20PM
#26
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Date Joined:
Aug 19, 2012
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You may misunderstand me. I'm not suggesting that there be a rule that powers can only target enemies, because that would break lots of things. I'm saying that the combination of two things... 1) Powers can target creatures - enemies and allies and even yourself. 2) Characters (generally) do not want to injure their allies by swinging at full strength. ... provides a basis for an option to so-called 'attack' without the possibility of burying your sword into your ally. Or yourself. How this would apply to dominated characters is, they don't have the option. They don't have the free choice. They aren't of free will to prevent themself from attacking, so they aren't of the free will to swing with reduced force. Simple as that, it's a matter of their mind is not their own. There already exists a method for an attack that doesn't do real damage. The character can attack a downed enemy in such a way that does no damage and merely knocks the enemy unconcious. How about a similar option that can be used on the self or allies, is what I'm saying. How about, for example, a sanctioned option for a swordmage to give themself a shallow cut of minimum damage, fulfilling the damage portion of a power and yet not inflicting the full possibility of 2d8+Int that happens when swinging with intent to kill. It's that "intent to kill" part that is not present when you are looking to be affected by an effect such as Deep Freeze. It's actually not a bad effect to have on yourself, but does it pass the sanity test to expect a character to actually attempt the grievous harm of a full strength attack in order to have it? And therein is the crux of my position - that it is simultaneously imbalanced to allow pulling of punches on an enemy, to knock them unconcious while doing ZERO damage... and yet require full strength attacks with the possibility of doing MAX damage to an ally or even yourself. Where's the sanity in that? I feel that it would be a bit too much to ask for the ability to put an effect on a creature while doing zero damage - it's part of an attack with a weapon after all. Which is why I asked about doing minimum damage, the lowest possible number that the dice could give you. In the case of Deep Freeze with 2d8+Int, that would be 2 points plus Int mod, maybe as much as 6 points total depending on Int score. Note that's on par with a good solid combat hit using a club on an enemy, so it's not like nothing.
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10 months ago ::
Aug 20, 2012 - 5:28AM
#27
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If your attacking yourself with deep freeze, then your attacking yourself with deep freeze. Any adjustments on damage is a houserule.
Now, you don't have to do it with your best weapon (i.e. attack with your bare fist), but then you'd loose the enhancement bonus on the aura damage.
Personally i would pick up some cold resist. Possibly get superior fortitude as well.
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my builds
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F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.
Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.
Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.
King Fisher Does an excellent job at keeping an enemy disabled in a few ways. Strong.
Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.
Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.
Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.
Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.
Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.
Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.
Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.
Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.
Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.
Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.
Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.
Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.
Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.
Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.
The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.
Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power
Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken
Unnamed Avenger|Runepriest/Hammer of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.
Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.
Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.
Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight, only far more broken.
Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.
Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.
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