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11 months ago ::
Aug 01, 2012 - 4:47AM
#71
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..."window.parent.tinyMCE.get('post_content').onLoad.dispatch();" contenteditable="true" />This is a cooperative game. The moment you start having fun at the expense of others' fun, you are a problem. The guy who plays a chaotic neutral (old edition) or evil character who attacks his teammate and claims "I'm just playing my alignment" is part of the problem. If you want to be a psychopath, that is fine. I have a universe full of monsters and npcs you can stab. When you stab another player, you are a problem. The thief who pickpockets from his friends, or finds treasure and conceals it from them because "I'm just playing my character as greedy" is not going to last long in my campaign. First of all, I have a universe full of npcs you can steal from. Leave your PC buddies alone. And when you steal stuff from npcs, share what you find, even if you're greedy. Otherwise, you're making a claim that your 'skill set' deserves more reward than theirs. You wouldn't want the party wizard to start billing the party for every spell he/she casts just because they are the only character who can cast spells and they wanted to be greedy too. Everybody's skill set deserves equal recognition and reward, because all the PCs are working together as a team. It can be a bloody dysfunctional team, but it has to be a team. Because this is a cooperative group game. If you have to abuse someone, abuse the npcs, because as the DM, I don't have any emotional investment in their success or failure. Don't pick personality quirks that are designed to get in the faces of your party members. I don't care if you are a drow, and you want to play up your racial hatred of elves. There's an elf in your party, and you will work with him. You can take extra fun in killing any npc elves you meet, but as Bender said: "Whenever I said 'kill all humans', I always whispered 'except one'. And he was the one."
*raucous applause*
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
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11 months ago ::
Aug 02, 2012 - 11:16AM
#72
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Date Joined:
Oct 18, 2007
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And thats the challenge and the fun part of it for me. =D How do I do evil things without getting caught.
This right here is why you would have trouble at my game table. I have no problem with evil characters, or evil taking place in my campaign. However, the player I would have no problems with is the one that "wants to do evil things without getting caught... by any npcs, monsters, or other legal authorities that exist in my game world."
Trying to outsmart the DM and think one step ahead of him is a good activity for any player to take fun out of. Word to the wise: it gets even more fun if your other players are acting in cooperation with you. Fun shared is multiplied, not additive.
However, you are trying not to get caught by the other players. Part of what brings you fun is outsmarting and outplaying them. This doesn't increase everybody's fun, it just increases yours (which isn't a problem) while decreasing theirs (which is).
In short, if you take pleasure in being smarter, better, more evil, more rich, or even taller than your fellow players, then D&D should not be the game for you. If your favorite thing is not getting caught by the other players, my advice is to go play a video game where you can be the protagonist and the world really does revolve around you. If, however, you're just trying to get away with stuff without getting caught by the npcs, monsters, and legal authorities of your game world, then good luck.
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10 months ago ::
Aug 03, 2012 - 2:04PM
#73
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Date Joined:
May 25, 2012
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I haven't read every post in this thread, so I apologize if somebody has already said this.
Here's a version of a speech I give all my players whenever I start a new campaign.
This is a cooperative game. The moment you start having fun at the expense of others' fun, you are a problem. The guy who plays a chaotic neutral (old edition) or evil character who attacks his teammate and claims "I'm just playing my alignment" is part of the problem. If you want to be a psychopath, that is fine. I have a universe full of monsters and npcs you can stab. When you stab another player, you are a problem. The thief who pickpockets from his friends, or finds treasure and conceals it from them because "I'm just playing my character as greedy" is not going to last long in my campaign. First of all, I have a universe full of npcs you can steal from. Leave your PC buddies alone. And when you steal stuff from npcs, share what you find, even if you're greedy. Otherwise, you're making a claim that your 'skill set' deserves more reward than theirs. You wouldn't want the party wizard to start billing the party for every spell he/she casts just because they are the only character who can cast spells and they wanted to be greedy too. Everybody's skill set deserves equal recognition and reward, because all the PCs are working together as a team. It can be a bloody dysfunctional team, but it has to be a team. Because this is a cooperative group game. If you have to abuse someone, abuse the npcs, because as the DM, I don't have any emotional investment in their success or failure. Don't pick personality quirks that are designed to get in the faces of your party members. I don't care if you are a drow, and you want to play up your racial hatred of elves. There's an elf in your party, and you will work with him. You can take extra fun in killing any npc elves you meet, but as Bender said: "Whenever I said 'kill all humans', I always whispered 'except one'. And he was the one."
So to the OP thief: my advice is to never steal from your party members. This includes getting to loot first and hiding it. If you pickpocket people in the street for fun, I'd find some way to share the wealth with your party. Maybe you use that money to buy healing potions for everybody. Include them in the benefits of your larceny. The moment you start believing that your character deserves more money than theirs, for any reason, you are getting your fun out of the game while diminishing theirs. At our table, reducing others' fun is the one and only cardinal sin. When your dm sees that you are no longer putting yourself above them, he may very well back off a little. However, also make sure you are not diminishing his fun either. Just because I don't mind my npcs getting abused doesn't mean he won't mind if he thinks you are taking advantage of him.
I concur with Salla - ***STANDING OVATION***
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10 months ago ::
Aug 05, 2012 - 2:43AM
#74
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Thank you MeCorva for being reasonable. When we first started this campaign the DM told me that he didnt expect anyone to play a thief, or anyone of an evil alignment.
I believe I have found your problem, OP....
The DM said he didn't want anyone to play a thief. You then took it upon yourself to play a thief. No wonder there is friction here.
Just the fact that you went above and beyond to convince the DM to let you play a thief when he clearly didn't want one in the party (probably for this very reason) is quite telling.
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10 months ago ::
Aug 08, 2012 - 9:07AM
#75
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If you choose to play an evil char you shouldn't be penalized for it, you're just roleplaying well.
And when the rest of the party catches you and kills you or throws you out, causing you to no longer be a viable PC, that's not a "penalty" and they're just roleplaying well the kind of reactions they should have to discovering a traitor in the group.
Put another way: You've created a character who is making the game worse for the other players, and the GM is attempting to discourage you from making yourself unplayable rather than requiring the other players to kick you out. If you keep going, they can, and should.
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10 months ago ::
Aug 08, 2012 - 9:21AM
#76
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If you choose to play an evil char you shouldn't be penalized for it, you're just roleplaying well.
And when the rest of the party catches you and kills you or throws you out, causing you to no longer be a viable PC, that's not a "penalty" and they're just roleplaying well the kind of reactions they should have to discovering a traitor in the group.
That's always been my favorite part. "I'm just roleplaying my character" as an excuse for being a complete douche and screwing up the game, then that person invariably turns into a pouty (female dog) and protests when the rest of the players say "So are we," and they have to suffer the consequences of being a douche.
Hypocrisy. Gotta love it.
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
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10 months ago ::
Aug 08, 2012 - 10:09AM
#77
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First off, just because you have the ability to steal things and you want to play a character that steals from people doesn't mean that the other players or the DM are expected to allow you to do it without restriction. Everyone in the group has the ability to creep around killing people in their sleep. There are specific rules in each edition for it, but the mere existence of a tool doesn't justify its use.
Here's the thing about 2nd. Edition: it doesn't presume to justify your character's inclusion in the adventuring group. It doesn't presume to excuse behavior by giving you the ability to do a thing; it gives you a set of tools that are more or less appropriate to a character archetype, and then leaves you to decide what to do with them. Those tools might not ever be needed in the course of a campaign - again, they gave them to you because that's what they imagined a person like you would be able to do, if the need arose.
Your character has, as a function of its character class, the ability to steal from people. You can use that to the benefit of the party if the need arises. You can also use it to the detriment of the party, by stealing from your party members after the treasure is divided so you get more than your share, or by looting the bodies before the treasure is counted so you get more than your share. Answer me this, though: what makes your stealing from people ability any different from the wizard's fry people to death with bat crap and explosive gibberish ability? If you're going to use yours on them, what's stopping them using theirs on you?
It's up to you to justify your character's inclusion in the group. The heroes don't have to tolerate a villain in their midst just because you made one and brought it to the table. Yes, it might be in character for the person you created to steal from his own allies. It's in their character to slaughter people like your character. Why, then, is he traveling with them? Why would they put up with him? You've already said yourself that the wizard can open locks. What do they need your character for that's so important it compels them to excuse his behavior?
You're stealing from powerful, violent people who have shown very little tolerance for that sort of thing. You tell me how that's supposed to end.
"When Friday comes, we'll all call rats fish."
D&D Outsider
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10 months ago ::
Aug 08, 2012 - 2:29PM
#78
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Date Joined:
Feb 16, 2011
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I've played in several campaigns where someone wanted to play a thief because they really just wanted to run around stealing from other PC's and generally had their fun being disruptive of the group. Eventually the DM's just ignored the player and he would walk away. (A lot of my gaming has been in rec centers and gaming clubs will some 'walk-in' playing. Players can come and go, unlike in someone's house!) It doesn't sound like you are trying to be disruptive of the group, but your DM may have had some experiences of this type, and is having trouble trying to figure out a nice way of saying 'Don't loot while others are trying to fight the monster. Help them win the fight.'
To be honest, most of the pickpocketing I've done in any edition of the game has resulted in very little money. Someone else commented on this and I agree, don't walk around trying to pickpocket every 5 minutes of playing time. Spend more time gathering info and other group-benefiting stuff that thieves and bards are good at, and you can get hefty XP for doing stuff that helps the party loot bigger monsters. (The DMG has a table for individual XP awards by class. Mages for spellcasting, thieves for gp stolen, etc. Look at other stuff you can do to get xp.)
However, you shouldn't be getting hosed on XP just because other PC's are of slower-advancing classes. One of the real benefits of being of the Rogue group (Bards and thieves) in 2nd edition is fast advancement.
Perhaps the DM and you can sit down once in a while and do a little 1-on-1 burglary-type adventuring, like the 2nd edition Thief's Challenge modules? (He might do the same with the fighters, wizards, etc. some other time.)
The DM's concern that you might be playing 'evil', or close to it, is something that you and he should serious talk about. I have played in a group with a DM who basically wanted everyone to be lawful-good or close to it. He disallowed doing things that a chaotic should be able to do, like pulling a fast one on an enemy who wanted you dead. He was practically scripting PC actions. He never came right out and said it, but after a while we all figured out he pretty much wanted a party of Fighters, Paladins and lawful-good clerics. It got really annoying. The accual campaign he had put together was basically worth putting up with the shortcomings.
Bottom line, you joined an existing group and need to figure out the dynamics of the group and style of play. This group and DM may not be one that you fit with well, just because of different styles of play. They might be more of a villain-hunters-style, or combat oriented, or whatever, and you might be more stealth-and-pilfering type. They don't always fit together.
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10 months ago ::
Aug 08, 2012 - 4:47PM
#79
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Change your character, or change your group.
A few months ago a guy came to me who wanted to make copper miniatures. I said it wouldn't work. But it did and they look cool, pm for pictures. Live in the United States? Spoiler:
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10 months ago ::
Aug 09, 2012 - 7:11AM
#80
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Date Joined:
Jun 12, 2009
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This thread is pretty much dead.
We summoned a devil once. All we used was the D&D books, too. It was pretty kwazy.
God of Arrested Development and Intelligence 
Resident Left Hand of Stalin and Banana Stand Grandstander
Pie-Cooling-On-A-Windowsill of the House of Trolls
In the morning HK'll be sober but you'll still be a meatbag.
I know I misspell "Danke" in my posts. It's an inside joke.
"Ten cents gets you nuts." -George Michael
Spoiler:
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''Being president is like running a cemetery: you've got a lot of people under you and nobody's listening.''
—Bill Clinton
You are not a moral man. There are not enough middle fingers in the world for you.
Why do I get a silly PG-13 man giggle
going everytime I see Fist Of The Forest ?
Actually, Santa just didn't like you. However, you weren't on the Naughty List, so he had to give you something "better" than coal.
I'd take coal. Heating your house is expesive, and engery cost arn't going down.
Mabey if i beat enough homeless people, i won't have to be cold this year. 
"Heroes"...I wish I had those. I remember in my first-ever campaign one PC went around shootin all the unconscious baddies in the head to gain Dark Side Points...
Whaaaaaat?!??
Wow...way to waste perfectly good potential slaves.
Er...no wait I mean..uh...something not evil!
(Quotes screwed up on the next one, won't give the poster's name. It's in the Best Lines thread on the D&D forum)
First, an experience from a game I played in a few years back. Our DM didn't like 3.5 as a whole but liked parts of it. So he hands us a big ass rules packet for his modified FR campaign, complete with quotes from important NPC's on the front. I can't remember most of the HRs, just that some how gods like Cyric and Bhaal existed at the same time, despite the obvious problems there. In the end the game became a problem more because of the railroading than the HRs, but it ended with this classic line, after our ranger tried to disarm the strange woman following us WITH HIS BOW: DM: You just killed (insert random noble sounding name here) JP: Was she important? Jack: Dude, she's quoted on the front of the rules packet!
"Why in the wide,wide, world of all things irrational would I help you?
-Daniel Jackson
"Fun will now commence."
-Seven of Nine
"Excellent."
-Mr. Burns.
Whey is a crotch.
Cut the last encounter on your way out after dealing with the Darth. He's the BBEG. Treat him as such. Play up that Darth Revan is THAT much of a badarse. When the shuttle landed, I had no less than 13 JEDI MASTERS step off the shuttle. The PCs were slack-jawed. After the meetup with Bastila (as she's carrying Revan's body), only TWO jedi masters remained with her. Let me tell you, the player whining about not getting to fight Revan himself shut up pretty quickly when he saw that. 
There's so much you can do with insanity, especially when it has alot of resources.
1. Cleric cast protection from fire on Tank.
2. Tank goes in and get surrounded by enemies.
3. Wizard cast fireball and blows them up.
4. ???
5. Profit
I go by the saying," If it ain't friendly fire then it's not working."
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