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11 months ago ::
Jul 24, 2012 - 12:31PM
#11
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It looks like a strict RAW reading is that you would have to kill it; however, I have trouble imagining a DM not letting you turn the kill into a knockout.
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
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11 months ago ::
Jul 24, 2012 - 4:11PM
#12
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- Here be Dragons next 100 km
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If anything, it should be easier to knock a Helpless creature unconscious, not harder. 
Easier than knocking out a non-helpless creature, yes. Easier than killing a helpless creature, no. Ask any Special Forces guy whether it's quicker and easier to slip a knife in a guy's back or to take him down in a non-lethal choke-hold.
The point of Coup De Grace is to kill a creature when dealing enought damage, even if not reducing to 0 hit points.
The point of knocking a creature unconscious is to knock a creature unconscious rather than kill it when reducing to 0 hit point (this with Coup De Grace or not)
So since knock a creature unconscious explicitly state that it doesn't kill a creature reduced to 0 hit points and that Coup De Grace doesn't explicitly exclude the possibility of knock it unconscious, therefore you can knock a creature you Coup De Gaced unconscious instead of killing it if the attack reduces it to 0 hit points by strick RAW. And if the creature is not reduced to 0 hit point then it dies because the rule for knocking it unconscious cannot be used.
That's some very convoluted logic, and I don't think it stands up. Choosing to knock a creature out is something you get to do when reducing it to 0 hit points, not whenever you kill it by any means.
Personally, I'd allow someone performing a coup de grace to choose to forego the "slays outright" part and just get the critical hit - but if the crit didn't drop the target to 0, I wouldn't let it be a knock-out blow.
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11 months ago ::
Jul 24, 2012 - 4:40PM
#13
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Date Joined:
May 12, 2009
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That's some very convoluted logic, and I don't think it stands up. Choosing to knock a creature out is something you get to do when reducing it to 0 hit points, not whenever you kill it by any means.
Personally, I'd allow someone performing a coup de grace to choose to forego the "slays outright" part and just get the critical hit - but if the crit didn't drop the target to 0, I wouldn't let it be a knock-out blow.
Thats exactly what i was saying. You cannot knock unconscious unless the creature is also reduced to 0 hit points. Its a requirement of this rule.
But there is no difference between a creature being reduced to 0 hi point (and thus killed) by a Coud De Grace Critical Hit than by a standard Critical Hit without using this action. In both case the rule on knocking unconscious is more specific in that it allows you to knock it out instead of killing it. Thats what you're doing when Coup De Gracing it while reducing it to 0 hit point, you're killing it. Instead, you can knock it unconscious with a specific rule.
Slaying the Target Outright: If the critical hit deals damage greater than or equal to the target’s bloodied value, the target dies.
Knock Creatures Unconscious: When an adventure reduced a monster or DM-controlled character to 0 hit points, he or she can choose to knock the creature unconscious rather than kill it.
Yan
Montréal, Canada
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11 months ago ::
Jul 24, 2012 - 4:53PM
#14
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Date Joined:
Jun 15, 2004
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fwiw: the 3.5 rules had the same quirk (but the 3.5 FAQ offered mechanics to do so anyway if you so desired).
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11 months ago ::
Jul 24, 2012 - 4:54PM
#15
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Date Joined:
Jun 17, 2010
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I'm not clear on how you think the KO rule is more specific as that refers to any reduced-by-0 event, including a potential CdG. That's pretty much the definition of general.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
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11 months ago ::
Jul 24, 2012 - 11:50PM
#16
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- Here be Dragons next 100 km
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That's some very convoluted logic, and I don't think it stands up. Choosing to knock a creature out is something you get to do when reducing it to 0 hit points, not whenever you kill it by any means.
Personally, I'd allow someone performing a coup de grace to choose to forego the "slays outright" part and just get the critical hit - but if the crit didn't drop the target to 0, I wouldn't let it be a knock-out blow.
Thats exactly what i was saying. You cannot knock unconscious unless the creature is also reduced to 0 hit points. Its a requirement of this rule.
But there is no difference between a creature being reduced to 0 hi point (and thus killed) by a Coud De Grace Critical Hit than by a standard Critical Hit without using this action.
But coup de grace can slay a creature even if it doesn't reduce it to 0 hp. Would you still let the target be knocked out in that situation, despite the lack of the "reduce to 0" trigger?
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11 months ago ::
Jul 24, 2012 - 11:54PM
#17
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Date Joined:
Oct 28, 2010
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More to the point, you're not reducing it to 0 HP. You're killing it outright, in the same way as knocking a PC to negative bloodied does. RAW, it dies. It isn't reduced to 0 HP in between, it just dies. Do not pass 'Go', do not collect £200.
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11 months ago ::
Jul 25, 2012 - 12:07AM
#18
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Date Joined:
May 12, 2009
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''If the critical hit deals damage greater than or equal to the target’s bloodied value''.... If the attack deals damage, it means damage are substracted from the target's hit point and thus reduced. If this reduction is equal or greater than 0, it has effectively been reduced to 0 hit points. Every attacks reduces hit points, Coup De Grace is not different. Are you saying that Coup De Gracing an Elemental Ooze to death doesn't let him use Elemental Burst because he wasn't reduced to 0 hit points ? (Or any other monsters with Triggering Powers upon being reduced to 0 hit points ?)
Yan
Montréal, Canada
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11 months ago ::
Jul 25, 2012 - 2:20AM
#19
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Date Joined:
Oct 28, 2010
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Yes. If the crit deals damage greater than the target's bloodied value, it dies. Outright.
If the damage also reduces it to 0, those sorts of powers work I think (depending on action type, but then, that's always the case, and a whole bunch of them don't technically work at all), but that wouldn't stop it dying, and you can't opt to KO it in that situation, which was the real point..
And this does work on a full HP target, which would never go below 0.
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11 months ago ::
Jul 25, 2012 - 2:50AM
#20
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Date Joined:
May 12, 2009
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If the damage also reduces it to 0, those sorts of powers work I think.
Then why do you disagree that you could also knock a creature unconscious instead of killing it if a Coup De Grace dealt enought damage to reduce it to 0 hit point as well ?
Both game elements can only be used if the same event occur (being reduced to 0 hit points)
Yan
Montréal, Canada
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