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12 months ago ::
Jul 23, 2012 - 9:15PM
#1
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Hi all,
I'm new to 4e and D&D in general, but have been doing a lot of reading preparing for our first campaign.
I have a concept for a character brought about by reading the articles the shivs of sorcery and luckbenders in dragon which really has me wanting to play a wild magic sorcerer who fights close up, probably with sneak of shadows but little or no multiclassing past that. The idea of a character with pretty random spell effects swashbuckling his way into situations way over his head with only his luck getting him out in one piece sounds like great fun.
I'm concerned that this character may need a ton of feats to be at all viable and be very difficult to play at low level. I found one build on the wiki thread similar to what I'm thinking of, but several years old. I was thinking of going for luckbender or wild mage as a PP but am now thinking of something more along the lines of daggermaster or the like so i can actually get some use out of those blades. For race I was thinking of changeling, though human is tempting just for the extra feat.
You should know we have probably the most lax DM in existence with very loose rules. We'll probably be able to take 2 utility powers whenever we'd normally take one and also get free skill powers on top of that. We'll never have to worry about errata needing an ability and will always use the most powerful version published. If an ability fits in flavor but is underpowered he'll probably let us change it, especially if I can point to a guide that says the ability is weak. So feel free to alter abilities to fit your own idea of balance or suggest your own homebrew feats or powers or just make something up. Our DM really only cares about fun and has only the vaguest notion of balance (or even rules - luckily he's a hell of a story teller).
Also, although I'm mostly concerned about him holding up in combat, this campaign won't be combat focused, with lots of diplomacy/intrigue and roleplaying. If it would help to know more about the background of the campaign or character I can but i doubt its necessary - I'm really just looking for a sorcerer with a gambling streak and a lot of randomness who can hold up in melee and hopefully is still tactically interesting to play - dual wielding daggers is a plus if there's room for the feats but all ideas are welcome.
Thanks and sorry for the length.
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12 months ago ::
Jul 23, 2012 - 9:23PM
#2
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There really is no other way to play an optimized Sorc except in melee. So.... no, you don't really need a lot of feats and yes it is perfectly viable.
Any Cha/Dex race will work, though I prefer Halfing.
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12 months ago ::
Jul 23, 2012 - 9:44PM
#3
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Date Joined:
Apr 19, 2012
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I play one of these in my ongoing campaign. Storm Sorcs work better for this because of Lightning Fury, but Wild should still work well.
Daggermaster is Rogue powers only. That used to be a devastating build, now it's unusable.
Flame Spiral, Lightning Cuts, and Spark Form are your best friends, learn to love them.
Featwise you won't be too strapped for feat room.
Changeling has no support, human isn't necessary. There are a lot of CHA/DEX races to choose from, so the sky's the limit there. Drow and Revenant are notable.
Primordial Channeler seems to be the strongest of the Wild Mage-centric PPs. You have a few other good options too.
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12 months ago ::
Jul 23, 2012 - 9:56PM
#4
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Daggermaster is Rogue powers only. That used to be a devastating build, now it's unusable.
One abusive build in a WotC work game ruined that one. They made Luckbender as a "replacement," but it's not nearly as good as I recall.
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12 months ago ::
Jul 23, 2012 - 11:12PM
#5
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Thanks all. Luckily with my DM we never worry about errata, so I can still use daggermaster and any other ability in its original form. I had read in some places that the STR based sorcerers were built for melee while the DEX sorcerers didn't handle it well but I guess that was incorrect. I noticed the near total lack of feat support for changelings but one would fit in the campaign well and it works for the back story I have planned so decided to go for it. Because of the nature of the campaign we're trying to keep everyone a separate race and we already have a halfling. I'm not too much of a halfling fan anyway, though their racial ability would fit thematically. Drow was my second choice and I still may go that route. Would it be wise to take any two weapon fighting feats? It seems that would go well with dual implement expertise and sorcerous blade channeling. Mastery of knives also seems like a decent choice. Are there any power/feat combos people would recommend? Something along the lines of unlucky teleportation combined with a lot of teleportation powers, though this example doesn't fit the idea I have of the character in my head. It seemed like there were a few other similar choices, like combining ongoing damage with a feat that did more damage to enemies suffering that condition and an almost identical combination except with slowed or weakened with a synergistic feat. Excuse my lack of recall, I'm very new to the game and have read a huge amount over the last few weeks (every campaign for every game I've ever tried to play has quickly degenerated, often due to a lack of planning and preparation -I'm trying to make this one work). Also I don't need the character to be completely optimized for for and the like, but rather optimized for fun. I'll take a somewhat inferior ability if its fun enough to play. I'm interested in a lot of the luck/gambling powers or feats or any feat that simulates or feels like luck. Unfortunately many of the abilities, especially the feats that fit that description are underpowered even for my non discerning tastes. If anyone knows worthwhile luck/gambling feats or powers of which most seem to be in the wild magic sections or abilities fitting a character that could be described as being swashbuckling or having a deathwish please let me know. And like i said my DM is very lenient so if there's an underpowered ability that you think should be augmented feel free to tell me what you think the power SHOULD be. My DM will almost certainly let me use it. But again I'm not looking to be overpowered, I'll settle for fun and mediocre  Thanks again for all your help.
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12 months ago ::
Jul 24, 2012 - 4:53AM
#6
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Thanks all. Luckily with my DM we never worry about errata, so I can still use daggermaster and any other ability in its original form.
I had read in some places that the STR based sorcerers were built for melee while the DEX sorcerers didn't handle it well but I guess that was incorrect. I noticed the near total lack of feat support for changelings but one would fit in the campaign well and it works for the back story I have planned so decided to go for it. Because of the nature of the campaign we're trying to keep everyone a separate race and we already have a halfling. I'm not too much of a halfling fan anyway, though their racial ability would fit thematically. Drow was my second choice and I still may go that route.
Would it be wise to take any two weapon fighting feats? It seems that would go well with dual implement expertise and sorcerous blade channeling. Mastery of knives also seems like a decent choice.
Are there any power/feat combos people would recommend? Something along the lines of unlucky teleportation combined with a lot of teleportation powers, though this example doesn't fit the idea I have of the character in my head. It seemed like there were a few other similar choices, like combining ongoing damage with a feat that did more damage to enemies suffering that condition and an almost identical combination except with slowed or weakened with a synergistic feat. Excuse my lack of recall, I'm very new to the game and have read a huge amount over the last few weeks (every campaign for every game I've ever tried to play has quickly degenerated, often due to a lack of planning and preparation -I'm trying to make this one work).
Also I don't need the character to be completely optimized for for and the like, but rather optimized for fun. I'll take a somewhat inferior ability if its fun enough to play. I'm interested in a lot of the luck/gambling powers or feats or any feat that simulates or feels like luck. Unfortunately many of the abilities, especially the feats that fit that description are underpowered even for my non discerning tastes. If anyone knows worthwhile luck/gambling feats or powers of which most seem to be in the wild magic sections or abilities fitting a character that could be described as being swashbuckling or having a deathwish please let me know. And like i said my DM is very lenient so if there's an underpowered ability that you think should be augmented feel free to tell me what you think the power SHOULD be. My DM will almost certainly let me use it. But again I'm not looking to be overpowered, I'll settle for fun and mediocre
Thanks again for all your help.
If you really like a luck based build, you could try a chaos bolt/lightning cuts build.
Use the following feats:
-dual implement caster
-staff expertise
-white lotus riposte
-master white lotus riposte (paragon tier feat)
(optional): wild spellfury (paragon tier feat)
Along with a battle harnass for your magic armor slot.
Basically, you walk adjacent to an enemy, then chaos bolt, and as a minor, lightning cuts. Maximize your to hit bonusses. As long as you keep hitting (and rolling even), chaos bolt keeps jumping targets. For each target you hit, all enemies adjacent to you take your dexterity mod in extra damage. If any of the targets you hit attack you during the next round, white lotus master reposte allows you to recast chaos bolt on that target.
Lightning cuts is a minor finisher. Use battle harness and items like power jewel and salve of power to recharge lightning cuts as a minor action whenever you start adjacent to a target.
Maybe not highly powerful, but very fun and I really like playing it.
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12 months ago ::
Jul 24, 2012 - 6:14AM
#7
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Thanks, the feats you mentioned are pretty much what I was thinking so I seem to be on the right track. Why staff expertise though? I was under the impression that with dual implement expertise I could use a dagger in each hand getting the bonus for both and I'd never need to use a staff. Do I misunderstand or is there an advantage to using staffs as well that I'm not aware of?
I'll have to read up on the items you mentioned - in all the reading I've done I pretty much skipped gear and always forget its importance in optimization. I'm not much for loot usually and am hoping I can use some of the alternative rewards like grandmaster training to fill some gaps.
One thing I forgot to ask about is themes. Are there any that you could see complementing this concept, particularly the dagger part, but I'd be interested in a theme related to wild magic/luck or just swashbuckling in general. BTW can no one search for themes in the compendium or is it just a glitch since I've been using my cell phone. It seems bizarre that you can search for poisons and other rather obscure things but not themes. Is there a list of all of them somewhere?
Finally, since my DM is letting us select 2 utility powers when we'd normally get one and I'm taking the basic rogue multiclass feat does anyone have suggestions for utility powers for the rogue that would work well with a sorcerer or just with the character concept in general? We'll also probably be getting some free skill powers so knowing the best of those for this build would be helpful too.
If there are articles in dragon that would be easier to point to than answer in depth I'd love to read them. I think I found most of what's directly useful yo me but the search function seems a little touchy sometimes.
Thanks again for the advice and I hope these questions aren't too newbish. I tried to do a bit of reading before coming here, but there's theoretical, armchair theorizing can't compare to direct experience after a certain point.
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12 months ago ::
Jul 24, 2012 - 6:46AM
#8
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Date Joined:
Apr 27, 2009
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Reasons for carrying a staff with staff expertise:
a) staff enchants (staff of ruin comes to mind)
b) staff expertise means no provoking opportunity attacks when casting ranged (or area) spells (like chaos bolt)
Also staff expertise increases reach with the staff by 1, potentially giving you a longer range melee option (but you'd have to drop the dagger, I think, or otherwise stow it.)
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12 months ago ::
Jul 24, 2012 - 6:48AM
#9
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Thanks, the feats you mentioned are pretty much what I was thinking so I seem to be on the right track. Why staff expertise though? I was under the impression that with dual implement expertise I could use a dagger in each hand getting the bonus for both and I'd never need to use a staff. Do I misunderstand or is there an advantage to using staffs as well that I'm not aware of? I'll have to read up on the items you mentioned - in all the reading I've done I pretty much skipped gear and always forget its importance in optimization. I'm not much for loot usually and am hoping I can use some of the alternative rewards like grandmaster training to fill some gaps. One thing I forgot to ask about is themes. Are there any that you could see complementing this concept, particularly the dagger part, but I'd be interested in a theme related to wild magic/luck or just swashbuckling in general. BTW can no one search for themes in the compendium or is it just a glitch since I've been using my cell phone. It seems bizarre that you can search for poisons and other rather obscure things but not themes. Is there a list of all of them somewhere? Finally, since my DM is letting us select 2 utility powers when we'd normally get one and I'm taking the basic rogue multiclass feat does anyone have suggestions for utility powers for the rogue that would work well with a sorcerer or just with the character concept in general? We'll also probably be getting some free skill powers so knowing the best of those for this build would be helpful too. If there are articles in dragon that would be easier to point to than answer in depth I'd love to read them. I think I found most of what's directly useful yo me but the search function seems a little touchy sometimes. Thanks again for the advice and I hope these questions aren't too newbish. I tried to do a bit of reading before coming here, but there's theoretical, armchair theorizing can't compare to direct experience after a certain point.
You might want to look at the sorceror handbook for general advice on gear, or armisael's compendium of magic items.
To clarify: the build I'm mentioning has the goal of both casting a standard action attack each turn and a minor action lightning cuts follow up once to twice each combat. This is something else from pure melee, but attacking twice roughly half of your turns in conjunction with using the sorcerer's attacks that hit multple targets is quite powerful. The minor action lightning cuts is melee only and enables the second attack, forcing you into melee to get the most damage.
To go over your questions briefly:
-Casting chaos bolt is a ranged attack. Unless you use staff expertise, you provoke attacks of opportunity from everyone around you. You could also wear a certain armor to prevent provoking attacks, but I believe the battle harness is a better one. You use the off-hand for making melee basic attacks and lightning cuts, and the staff for everything else.
-Using a staff allows you to take the staff of ruin as an implement, which adds more damage to all your attacks. You could use a jagged dagger as a main hand, but you'd lose out on guaranteed damage on all your attacks and lose the ability to recharge lightning cuts as a minor via your armor and woundrous items (you need the armor that prevents attacks of oppotuniry then, see above).
-The only items you really need to make this work are the battle harnass, a power jewel and a salve of power. It allows two minor action recharges of lightning cuts per day.
-There is only one theme that supports this well; devil's pawn. The minor action encounter power is both free damage, lowering of enemy defenses and lowering enemy attacks if they stay in your aura.
-I don't understand what you mean by utilities. Do you mean that you get multiple multiclass feats for free instead of one? If so, there are a number of generic damage increasing multiclass feats a sorceror could grab easily: sneak of shadows (rogue), warrior of the wild (ranger), bravo training (bravo), and walker of the dark path (blackguard). The last one doesn't add as much damage as the others, but adds a defensive utility once per day and gives access to a holy symbol (use symbol of victory), which grants an additional action point every day if you crit at least once. I use the last option.
Putting it all together, this is a character builder summary of the build i'm using. Everything is geared towards using multi-attacking spells along with lightning cuts as much as possible, except for perhaps the race (pure damage would prefer drow). I just like the secrets of Belial feat, exclusive to tieflings. If you're looking for advice on what items/powers to pick or w/e, these are pretty good options.
Spoiler:
Show
====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Evan, level 16
Tiefling, Sorcerer, Demonskin Adept
Build: Chaos Sorcerer
Spell Source Option: Wild Magic
Luskan (Luskan Benefit)
Theme: Devil's Pawn
FINAL ABILITY SCORES
STR 9, CON 16, DEX 20, INT 12, WIS 11, CHA 22
STARTING ABILITY SCORES
STR 8, CON 13, DEX 16, INT 11, WIS 10, CHA 16
AC: 28 Fort: 26 Ref: 29 Will: 32
HP: 103 Surges: 9 Surge Value: 25
TRAINED SKILLS
Arcana +14, Endurance +16, Intimidate +19, Stealth +21, Thievery +19
UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +13, Athletics +7, Bluff +16, Diplomacy +14, Dungeoneering +8, Heal +8, History +9, Insight +8, Nature +8, Perception +8, Religion +9, Streetwise +14
POWERS
Basic Attack: Melee Basic Attack
Basic Attack: Ranged Basic Attack
Devil's Pawn Attack: Hellfire and Brimstone
Tiefling Racial Power: Infernal Wrath
Paladin Utility: Shroud of Shadow
Sorcerer Attack 1: Chaos Bolt
Sorcerer Attack 1: Ensorcelled Blade
Sorcerer Utility 2: Focused Chaos
Sorcerer Attack 3: Flame Spiral
Sorcerer Attack 3: Lightning Cuts
Sorcerer Attack 5: Thunder Leap
Sorcerer Utility 6: Sudden Scales
Sorcerer Attack 9: Winds of Change
Sorcerer Utility 10: Maiden's Waking
Druid Utility 10: Feywild Sojourn
Demonskin Adept Attack 11: Demon-Soul Bolts
Sorcerer Attack 13: Chains of Fire
Sorcerer Attack 15: Lightning Daggers
Sorcerer Utility 16: Dominant Winds
FEATS
Level 1: Staff Expertise
Level 2: Dual Implement Spellcaster
Level 4: Armor Proficiency: Leather
Level 6: Implement Focus (Staff)
Level 8: Walker of the Dark Path
Level 10: White Lotus Riposte
Level 11: White Lotus Master Riposte
Level 12: Secrets of Belial
Level 14: Improved Defenses
Level 16: Wild Spellfury
ITEMS
Magic Dagger +3 x1
Bracers of Escape (heroic tier) x1
Boots of the Fencing Master x1
Circlet of Mental Onslaught x1
Power Jewel
Salve of Power
Demonbound (level 8)
Adventurer's Kit
Thieves' Tools
Footpads
Accurate staff of Ruin +3 x1
Siberys Shard of the Mage (paragon tier)
Backlash Tattoo x1
Gauntlets of Blood (paragon tier) x1
Battle Harness Drowmesh +3 x1
Symbol of Victory +2 x1
Raven Cloak +3 x1
====== End ======
Good luck building your character!
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12 months ago ::
Jul 24, 2012 - 8:25AM
#10
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Actually since Lightning Cuts requires a dagger and there is a good Expertise feat for Light/Heavy blades as Implements now, I'd just wear the armor to avoid OAs. It will be more difficult to get an item bonus to damage, except his DM ignores any errata that makes things weaker. Old Staff of Ruin worked in the off-hand with DIS. And old TWF applied to Implement attacks as well as weapon ones. Really, with the houserule that "errata that made things weaker is ignored" the handbook isn't going to help him much. @OP You generally get a better response when you post a build and ask for critiques. So: community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...That is the really old Sorc handbook, which predates most errata. But it doesn't have themes (they didn't exist) and some other things. For anything it doesn't have, consult the current handbook. community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...Which is there. I'd only post it up to Paragon, if you're starting at level 1.
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