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4 months ago ::
Feb 15, 2013 - 3:56PM
#11
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I've got to say, you folks mention your love for Master Manipulator both with this build and Uncanny Trapsmith. Here you call it arguably the best social feat in 3.5.
Am I missing something? To me it's handy if you've got a pretty buffed out Sense Motive, but not ridiculous - after all, Bluff is generally a lot easier to make sky-high than Sense Motive. The first ability could be useful now and then, but isn't earth shattering. The second ability, which in the Uncanny Trapsmith build you say will, without fail, reveal your opponent's deceptions, is contingent on beating their Bluff check. Again, a character with a buffed out Sense Motive can certainly make decent use of Trap of Words, but if you beat their Bluff check you already know they're lying.
It's an interesting feat, I just don't see it as being quite as OMG GOOD as it's described here.
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4 months ago ::
Feb 16, 2013 - 12:18PM
#12
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Date Joined:
Aug 17, 2004
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I've got to say, you folks mention your love for Master Manipulator both with this build and Uncanny Trapsmith. Here you call it arguably the best social feat in 3.5.
Am I missing something? To me it's handy if you've got a pretty buffed out Sense Motive, but not ridiculous - after all, Bluff is generally a lot easier to make sky-high than Sense Motive. The first ability could be useful now and then, but isn't earth shattering. The second ability, which in the Uncanny Trapsmith build you say will, without fail, reveal your opponent's deceptions, is contingent on beating their Bluff check. Again, a character with a buffed out Sense Motive can certainly make decent use of Trap of Words, but if you beat their Bluff check you already know they're lying.
It's an interesting feat, I just don't see it as being quite as OMG GOOD as it's described here.
Bluff and Sense Motive are the only skills I know of whose rules for interaction include official rules for conditional modifiers greater than than the usual -2/+2 fudging. So while it's hard to overcome glibness and the like blind, with good information gathering you can dig up dirt that calls NPC claims into question and pick up huge conditional bonuses. They don't mention that the Gather Information skill or contact other plane spell will give you +20 to a Sense Motive check, but they can depending on what you dig up.
But you can detect a lie without Master Manipulator. What makes Trap of Words so amazing is its ability to, effectively, cause a compulsion effect without actually being a compulsion effect. It forces the target to slip up and explain why they were lying, which (unlike a well crafted lie) is almost always information they don't want to give up. This is an extraordinary, non-mind-affecting ability; you can use it on intelligent undead, high-SR-and-saves outsiders, what have you. There is no defense against it other than the skill check; it pierces Mind Blank, which read thoughts can't do. Meanwhile, if you're good with Bluff yourself, you can conceal the fact that the other guy slipped up, which means you took sensitive information and they're not aware of it. That's not something you do with magic, really; there are too many ways to detect scrying and other such powers. And again, the target has no defense against this besides the skill check; it's a compulsion effect without the weaknesses of real compulsion effects.
On other news, the Zero Buff Time Gish writeup is awaiting final review and we should get it to y'all soon.
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4 months ago ::
Feb 16, 2013 - 3:35PM
#13
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Date Joined:
Aug 15, 2012
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"Could you do a version of this build with a Wilder/Cognition Thief/Thrallherd?"
I think you guys missed my previous post.
Also, the Fiend of Possesion PRC is also a nice way to probe thoughts that's not mind-effecting. It's pretty obvious though.
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4 months ago ::
Feb 16, 2013 - 5:23PM
#14
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Date Joined:
Aug 17, 2004
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Ah, so we did. Unfortunately, I am completely unfamiliar with the Cognition Thief. It's really really hard to get all the powers you'll want in this build with the Wilder, though.
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3 months ago ::
Feb 17, 2013 - 4:11PM
#15
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Date Joined:
Aug 15, 2012
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Ah, so we did. Unfortunately, I am completely unfamiliar with the Cognition Thief. It's really really hard to get all the powers you'll want in this build with the Wilder, though.
Ah but that is the beauty of Cognition Thief (From the Players guide to Faerun). It look pretty awfull at first glance (you lose 4 manifester levels!) but for a Wilder (and to a lesser extent the Ardent) it actually makes up for it. I'll let the poster Samb explain it for me:
"The real entry class is clearly wilder, which no one uses and hence easy to out on. Everyone seems to overlook the fact that in 10 levels you gain 8 free TELEPATH only powers for free. Every level you lose ML you gain 2 powers without using EK. Wilders who only get 11 powers in 20 levels, this almost doubles their powers known and in telepath only list to boot. Hint: schism is on this list
What really makes this over the top is that it says you have to be able manifest the power in order to pick it. This means that if you have practiced manifester (a feat any psionic PC should have anyway for schism) you can pick any power as if you didn't lose ML to begin with. In fact, "be able to cast" can also mean under the effects of a wild surge as well so you could pick even higher level powers faster than if you leveled straight wilder. This alone more than makes up for the lose in ML and an easy +2.
You also gain a bunch of spell like abilities that further make up for a wilder's lack of varity, one of them being read thoughts AT WILL."
By taking Cognition Theif to 10 you lose 2 9nth level psion/wilder powers and gain 8 Telepath powers (ninth level powers included). Wild surge also helps with the pain of the lost pp.
The PRC requires Psionic Blast so go for 7 levels of Wilder (one extra for the bonus to Wild Surge) and then go into Cognition Theif. The PRC also requires Inquisitor and that along with it's other abilities make it a natural fit for Thrallherd.
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3 months ago ::
Feb 17, 2013 - 5:15PM
#16
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Date Joined:
Aug 17, 2004
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What really makes this over the top is that it says you have to be able manifest the power in order to pick it.
DOES IT HAVE THE SPECIFIC WORDING YOU FIND IN ARDENT MANIFESTING? As in, it references "manifester level"? Because that is necessary for it to work with wilder as you describe. Either way, that IS a nice find.
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3 months ago ::
Feb 17, 2013 - 5:53PM
#17
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Date Joined:
Aug 15, 2012
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What really makes this over the top is that it says you have to be able manifest the power in order to pick it.
DOES IT HAVE THE SPECIFIC WORDING YOU FIND IN ARDENT MANIFESTING? As in, it references "manifester level"? Because that is necessary for it to work with wilder as you describe. Either way, that IS a nice find.
Ouch! My ears! 
The exact text:
"Bonus Powers Known: At 1st, 4th, 7th, and 10th level, the cognition thief learns two new powers chosen from the telepath discipline. She can choose any power from the list that she would be able to manifest. Even cognition thieves who manifest their powers as wilders can choose from the telepath discipline list, which is otherwise forbidden to them. These powers are acquired through personal meditation, just as the new powers learned at each level in a base psionic class are. Thus, they take no time and cost no XP to learn."
And it's not really a "find". Its been known for years now (which you'd know about if you went to other forums! >:0( )
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3 months ago ::
Feb 17, 2013 - 6:06PM
#18
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Date Joined:
Aug 17, 2004
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Eeeeeeeeeehhhh....that's so ambiguous. It doesn't seem to work by RAW, but you could argue that the limit on power level in the Wilder's class table applies to powers learned, not powers manifested... Run it by your GM I guess. Oh, and which you'd know about if you went to other forums!
How comes the porting of the showcases?
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3 months ago ::
Feb 17, 2013 - 6:20PM
#19
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Date Joined:
Aug 15, 2012
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Eeeeeeeeeehhhh....that's so ambiguous. It doesn't seem to work by RAW, but you could argue that the limit on power level in the Wilder's class table applies to powers learned, not powers manifested...
Run it by your GM I guess.
Oh, and
which you'd know about if you went to other forums!
How comes the porting of the showcases?
What's the exact text of the Ardents manifesting (I don't have my book on me right now)?
And well...to put it bluntly: 0 progress. I wasn't working on it at all because I figured that it wasn't really important to you guys. Hence it was put on the very back of my priority list (I feel somewhat embarresed since I bugged you guys so much about getting the approval  ). If you want the showcases done in the near future i can totally do it (a month would probably suffice). The reason I haven't been working on it is because I figured it wasn't that important to you guys (the fact that it's a pretty huge amount of text didn't hurt either) .
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3 months ago ::
Mar 10, 2013 - 11:51PM
#20
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Date Joined:
Mar 11, 2013
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I do have a question concerning the build. Psionic Glibness is a third level power, and yet, you're picking it up at 4th level. I'm just curious as to how this is happening?
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