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Dungeons & Dra.. Dungeon Command Dungeon Command Rules Questions/Clarifications
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4 months ago  ::  Jan 23, 2013 - 2:15PM #131
Ultiville
Date Joined: Oct 16, 2010
Posts: 184

I think Riposte/Sieze the Opportunity cancelling attacks is fine; it's different from Magic but makes those cards actually good whereas they previously sucked, so I'm down.

Also, I 100% agree that if Cloud of Bats said "Prevent all damage from a source.  Shift 6", it would allow you to dodge melee attacks (and ranged attacks if you could get out of range/LOS).  This actually works just like Magic, where a target has to be legal when a spell resolves, not just when you play it.  It's also consitent with all DC rulings so far.  So I think assuming you shift before the triggering attack resolves, you should be able to dodge attacks.

On the other hand, the wording of Cloud of Bats is both unusual and very specific: "Prevent all damage from a source,  then shift 6."  It isn't as clear as I'd like, but it's very different wording from anything else, and IMO strongly implies that you move after the damage is dealt.  This also makes it work better as noted above.
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4 months ago  ::  Jan 23, 2013 - 2:44PM #132
DarkAngel1979
Date Joined: Oct 23, 2002
Posts: 609

Jan 23, 2013 -- 2:15PM, Ultiville wrote:


"Prevent all damage from a source,  then shift 6."  It isn't as clear as I'd like, but it's very different wording from anything else, and IMO strongly implies that you move after the damage is dealt.




Ugh, you're right, it's either poor templating or the effect is:


Declare attack. [Attack]

Declare CoB. [Attack "Prevent then shift 6"]. (If it was worded "Prevent all damage from one source. Shift 6." the stack would be [Attack Shift6 Prevent] but it's only one sentence.)        
 
CoB statement resolves. [Attack]

Attack resolves. Damage is prevented (or not, with Magic Shortsword) [Shift6]


Shift resolves.       

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4 months ago  ::  Jan 25, 2013 - 1:58PM #133
mrfaloon
Date Joined: May 17, 2010
Posts: 32
Sorry to disappoint but I can't agree.

'Then' as a conjunction is usually just a timing statement.

'If...then...' would be a conditional statement.

We already have conditional clauses with 'if the target takes damage from this attack'.

Since they know how to write those, why assume that this is another conditional when it isn't written that way?

The shadowy ambush card is printed as:

"Shift 2 squares.

Make a melee attack that deals 50 damage"

However, in the write up on 'multiple actions on cards' (p.9) it is written as:

"two actions:Shift 2 squares; then, Make a melee attack that deals 50 damage"

The word 'then' serves here only to place the actions in order, not to make one conditional on the other.

Note that 'players can respond to each action separately' when a card has multiple actions.

What I am undecided on is whether you can interrupt between the damage prevent and the shift in cloud.

Is it one action with two effects, or two actions? Is this why it's one sentance instead of two?

CoB is still not an automatic get out of jail free card though.

Imagine you get attacked when there are two creatures next to you.

You tap to play CoB, the second then hits you with Seize (and perhaps poison?). You're still not well.

Oh, and of course, this 'full evade' tactic fails completely before a L1 Int card (Web)!

That's what I love about this game, so many exquisite ways the cards spoil each other, and stop each other being broken.

'Then' certainly does not imply that the shift from cloud resolves after the card played before it on the stack.

If it did you'd never be able to kill an attacker and make his attack fizzle before it hits (because as we've seen above multiple actions on cards have an implied 'then', like shadowy ambush.

Damage prevention always resolves before the damage it 'soaks', you don't take the damage and then wind it back, you shield yourself against anticipated damage, thus taking less later when you actually do get hit.

What clinched it for me was... "Sometimes resolving an action on the stack makes another action on the stack impossible to resolve. For example an effect moves or destroys the target of a second effect below it on the stack. In this case the second action does nothing when it would resolve - it is simply removed from the stack."

So we have riposte and seize, which can destroy the attacker (other way round here, but WotC have validated this ruling).

Anyone volunteering any options for immediate effects that can move the target, as described? or the attacker?

I can think of two candidates, and Cloud of Bats is one of them.

The other is when an earth guardian uses seize to push his attacker out of melee reach...(now there's a cool trick, assuming it would work)

As we're 4 sets in, I'd say it's a safe bet that cloud is one of the cards this text was written for specifically, we know they designed most of, if not all of, the first 5 sets before they released the rules and I don't imagine many 'evade' cards will be in the orc set.

Could be wrong, after all, we don't really know what wisdom does, apart from card draw.

Perhaps the wise orc has had plenty of practice moving away before the ogre clobbers him for kicks?

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4 months ago  ::  Jan 25, 2013 - 8:32PM #134
Ultiville
Date Joined: Oct 16, 2010
Posts: 184

I agree with you that Earth Guardian can push people out of the way with Seize the Opportunit.  That never occurred to me and is sweet as all heck.  I will definitely try doing that, though I suspect the Guardian still basically sucks since he's Str-only and not a Humanoid.  Maybe BoG will give us enough awesome Strength stuff to make that ok, or his being an Elemental will make me want to use him with the Druid or something.

I still disagree on the Cloud because other effects that contain two different abilities that resolve one at a time have clear separate lines of text, separated not only by periods but by complete line breaks.  I see what you're saying on the rulebook, but the whole point of the rulebook is to explain the technical language in plan language terms, so I think it's use of then doesn't indicate the phrasing is interchangable in technical language (I certainly hope it isn't).  But I certainly agree it's not an open-and-shut case or 100% unambiguous.  This is why a full Comp Rules equivalent for DC would be nice, and failing that it'd be nice to have some more official response on boards or via FAQ  
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4 months ago  ::  Feb 05, 2013 - 7:00PM #135
SarkhanTheMad
Date Joined: Feb 5, 2013
Posts: 6

Sep 7, 2012 -- 12:33PM, person404 wrote:

Thanks to everyone who has responded, but I still feel like my first question hasn't been addressed. I may have been unclear.

In short, the question is: when do you assign the target of an attack action? Do you select a target as the attack/order goes onto the stack? Or, do you select the target when the attack/order goes to resolve?

My original example with Shadowy Ambush wasn't a question about the card, but just an illustration as to why such a question matters.

I know that assigning as the action goes on the stack seems more intuitive (at least to me), but I am hoping to find an official answer / offical source for this. Thanks! 


From rulebook p.8:

Effects, sources and targets

You choose the targets for an order card when you play it...when the ability resolves it checks whether the target is legal...



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4 months ago  ::  Feb 08, 2013 - 4:55AM #136
SarkhanTheMad
Date Joined: Feb 5, 2013
Posts: 6
Can someone clarify this?

A) Is assistance an action?
B) Does assistance  use the stack?
C) Can I play in response to an assistance?
Thanks!!! 
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4 months ago  ::  Feb 08, 2013 - 10:34AM #137
Argemon
Date Joined: Apr 12, 2011
Posts: 62
As far as I am aware you can only respond to an attack. As such the act of assisting does not warrant a response. However if the assisted action is an attack, then you can respond to either of the creatures, provided they are adjacent to you, as normal.
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4 months ago  ::  Feb 08, 2013 - 10:36AM #138
ComradeOne
Date Joined: Jan 13, 2013
Posts: 79

Feb 8, 2013 -- 10:34AM, Argemon wrote:

As far as I am aware you can only respond to an attack. As such the act of assisting does not warrant a response. However if the assisted action is an attack, then you can respond to either of the creatures, provided they are adjacent to you, as normal.




I think this sounds correct to me. Just as you can't respond to a creature tapping to play a standard, you respond to the action itself being played. Assiting is just 'paying the cost' to do some action, it's the actions you respond to, not the paying.

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4 months ago  ::  Feb 08, 2013 - 7:18PM #139
SarkhanTheMad
Date Joined: Feb 5, 2013
Posts: 6

Feb 8, 2013 -- 10:36AM, ComradeOne wrote:

Feb 8, 2013 -- 10:34AM, Argemon wrote:

As far as I am aware you can only respond to an attack. As such the act of assisting does not warrant a response. However if the assisted action is an attack, then you can respond to either of the creatures, provided they are adjacent to you, as normal.




I think this sounds correct to me. Just as you can't respond to a creature tapping to play a standard, you respond to the action itself being played. Assiting is just 'paying the cost' to do some action, it's the actions you respond to, not the paying.


It's clear thanks alot!

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3 months ago  ::  Feb 21, 2013 - 7:41AM #140
Elleron
Date Joined: Feb 18, 2010
Posts: 10
So, my buddy and I go back and forth on the rules and we are stuck on an issue with Mage Hand/Feint being responded to with Near Miss as an Immediate to untap.  I wanted to get specific ruling on it:

Mage Hand and Feint allow you to tap a creature as a Minor action.

Near Miss can be used as an Immediate Action and Prevents 20 damage, but also untaps the creature.  So, he wanted to use Near Miss on the stack of my Mage Hand/Feint.

In my mind, Mage Hand or Feint taps him and is unable to use an immediate.

In his mind, Mage Hand or Feint starts the stack and he can use an immediate because of the following text under THE STACK in the rule book:

"When an action would take place, it doesn't happen right away.  Each player gets a chance to respond to it with further actions."

Since Mage Hand and Feint are actions, they go on the stack first. The stack resolves from the bottom up, so he first taps because Mage Hand/Feint tap and then Near Miss untaps him.

Which way is correct?
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