Hello fellow comrades, I am writing this thread to tell you about the curret 3.5 campaign I am playing in and to ask some advice, as you may have guessed, it is a bit problematic, here are the facts
PCs Tiefling Paladin with +1 longsword Halfling Rogue His Dog Half-Elf Cleric
Then there are the NPCs, controlled by the DM, in our group Human Paladin with Excalibur Elf Paladin Demigod (Son of one of the Dragonlance deities, Habbakuk, and an elf) Half Elf Half Dwarf (So wrong in my opinion, elf mother violated by 2 dwarves) who had for a brief period the Axe of the Dwarvish Lords Grey Elf Wizard
The rogue told me he feels like he's useless
In my opinion the four NPCs slow the flow of the game, because essentially the DM has to play 4 characters and the other people we encounter, in fact the most common question asked to the GM is "Who is talking now?" and sometimes it seems he's talking to himself. It also slows when we are fighting monsters for the above reason. I tried to make him make the NPCs go away, but it seems he just won't listen. What do think about it? Am I being too mean to my DM or not? What I should do?
Your DM isn't running a game. He's masturbating. More NPCs than PCs in the party? An NPC with Excalibur, a demigod, and someone who once had an artifact? Your PCs are irrelevant here, aren't they? The NPCs handle everything that needs handled while you sit around and watch, right? "OMG, look at my great and powerful NPCs? Are they not majestic!?"
You need to talk to the DM, player-to-player (the DM is a player too, obviously) and tell him that 1. There are too many NPCs, and the effect it's having on the game, slowing things down, and being confusing because you don't know who's saying what.
2. Assuming I'm right about the NPCs hogging the spotlight (your statement about the rogue makes me think I am), this needs addressed as well. You're there to play the game and participate in cooperative storytelling, not sit around and watch the DM play with his uber-powerful action figures. DMPCs only work if they are follower-types; they should never upstage the PCs or be used to lead them around by the nose.
If he agrees, then there's no problem; your PCs can simply say, in-character, that they're slowing the NPCs down and part ways, going off to forge their own destinies. If he disagrees, then simply stop playing, because he's a crappy DM and you're not having fun. And if you're not having fun, why are you playing a game?
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
Whenever a DM starts to introduce super-powered NPCs, and they aren't the intimidating big baddies of the campaign that the party is supposed to overcome, you can bet your DM isn't so much interested in providing the group with a fun and engaging story, so much as he wants to tell this "really awesome" story that's been in his head for ages. The wide gap in power between the PCs and NPCs is a clear indication that your DM sees your characters as supporting cast, and that you, the players, are strictly his audience, not his fellow actors in the story.
The fact that the rest of you have characters is irrelevant to the story in his head; his super NPCs are the real stars of the show, judging from what you've said, and that's not going to change unless you call him out on it. Now, you have admitted that your past attempt(s) to address the NPC problem produced not a bit of progress. It's a good idea to not address him one-on-one, but to speak to the other players in the group and have them gather their thoughts. Then, you can all discuss it as a group.
If he finally wakes up and realizes he's being selfish and anti-fun, then good; hopefully, you'll see the NPCs disappear and the spotlight can return to the PCs, where it should have always been. If he refuses, then walk. It doesn't make sense to keep playing in a game that sucks. Oh, and if he tries to compromise ("I'll remove one or two of the NPCs, but the others have to stay"), don't give him an inch. If even one of those NPCs stays on board, he can easily ensure that the spotlight remains centered on his creation.
"I don't like X, they should remove it." "I like X, they should keep it." "They should replace X with Y." "Anybody that likes X is dumb. Y is better." "Why don't they include both X and Y." "Yeah, everybody can be happy then!" "But I don't like X, they should remove it." "X really needs to be replaced with Y." "But they can include both X and Y." "But I don't like X, they need to remove it." "Remove X, I don't like it."
Until you've had an in-law tell you your choice of game was stupid, and just Warcraft on paper, and dumbed down for dumber players who can't handle a real RPG, you haven't lived.
Lady and gentlemen.... I present to you the Edition War without Contrition, the War of the Web, the Mighty Match-up!
We're using standard edition war rules. No posts of substance. Do not read the other person's posts with comprehension. Make frequent comparison to video games, MMOs, and CCGs. Use the words "fallacy" and "straw man", incorrectly and often. Passive aggressiveness gets you extra points and asking misleading and inflammatory questions is mandatory. If you're getting tired, just declare victory and leave the thread. Wait for the buzzer... and....
One, two, three, four, I declare Edition War Five, six, seven eight, I use the web to
D&D should not return to the days of blindfolding the DM and players. No tips on encounter power? No mention of expected party roles? No true meaning of level due to different level charts or tiered classes? Please, let's not sacrifice clear, helpful rules guidelines in favour of catering to the delicate sensibilities of the few who have problems with the ascetics of anything other than what they are familiar with.
Just a quick note on the MMORPG as an insult comparison...
MMORPGs, raking in money by the dumptruck full. Many options, tons of fans across many audiences, massive resources allocated to development.
TTRPGs, dying product. Squeaking out an existence that relys on low cost. Fans fit primarily into a few small demographics. R&D budgets small, often rushed to market and patched after deployment.
You're not really making much of an argument when you compare something to a MMORPG and assume people think that means bad. Lets face it, they make the money, have the audience and the budget. We here on this board are fans of TTRPGs but lets not try to pretend none of us play MMORPGs.
Something like Tactical Shift is more magical than martial healing.
Telling someone to move over a few feet is magical now? :|
I weep for this generation.
Given the laziness and morbid obsesity amongst D&Ders, being able to convince someone to get on their feet, do some heavy exercise, and use their words to make them be healthier must seem magical.
NPCs should generally be there to move the plot along occasionally and if they engage in battle at all it should generally not involve rolling dice.
If they are in the actual battle they generally need to be someone the PCs are protecting or set up for automatic death/capture/betrayal for plot reasons.
NPCs as comic relief is ok and about the only time I have been ok with an NPC as a member of the group. We had one NPC for instance who was sort of tagging along for plot reasons and who our DM never really meant to be a major character, but the dice kept him alive for so long it became a running joke that he was part of the party and our PCs encouraged him to think he was actually a great warrior until rocks fell and he died.
Having NPCs "off stage" battling some great power is occasionally fine if appropriate to the plot.
NPCs should never overshadow PCs like how your DM is doing it. I had a different DM who did that and it took someone else stepping up to DM to solve the problem and he soon left the group once he was no longer the center of attention.
How many sessions has this been going on? I've seen dms do this because they are setting up the bbeg.
From the beginning we had the Demigod, another mage, who died and was replaced by the Grey Elf, and the Half Elf Half Dwarf, after a few sessions we got the other paladin
To give an idea of the time we started at level 1 and we are now 4/5
By the way we didn't know the elf was a Demigod until level 2/3
Tell the npcs that you are going to let them go first into the next area with monsters to attract their attention. Then turn the other way and leave.
See? As long as the whole party does not participate in the game with those guys, there is no game. You even have the perfect excuse: Next to those powerhouses, your characters feel useless. Even if the power house characters had their own monsters, when those are taken care of, the monster challenges for you hold little for them. Your lack of presence does nothing to help them. You might as well stay out of the way and go home.
I agree with everything Mastercliff said, including the part about the possible set up. I had a DM introduce two overpowered NPC's to a group I was in once. For a couple sessions it felt like they were robbing the limelight and we were all getting fed up but none of us had said anything yet, then later on those two over powered NPC's that killed everything while we watched ended up being the main antagonists, which instantly shifted the anti-fun to super fun, because it went from "Wow these guys are so strong, we don't get to do anything" to "omg these guys are so strong and we have to figure out how to stop them" It was cool.
Although by the sounds of it it seems more likely your DM is playing with himself and enjoying the audience. Most of the options people gave you are good. Bring it up to your Dm as a group, say it's no fun with them and they all have to go, don't let him keep even one around, and if he insists that there can't be a campaign with out them, either walk or say he has to cripple them, rob them, and possibly remove a limb. Or do what mastercliff said and just ditch the NPC's in the game, and if the DM asks out of character what's up, just say "it's no fun with them, we don't want them around"
If he's unreasonable then you have to get out, find a different DM and start over. There are some DM's that just can't be reasoned with ever.
@OP: Although mastercliff's advice is solid, there is one potential pitfall to the plan. If your DM is especially put out/bitter that the rest of you don't want to have to deal with his league of super NPCs, he might let you ditch them temporarily, only to later be forced into a situation where the PCs are seriously overwhelmed and the NPCs suddenly return to save the day. Obviously, this would be an appropriate time to quit the campaign, but it's worth anticipating if you suspect your DM will be irritated when you tell him his elite NPCs are sucking the life out of the game.
"I don't like X, they should remove it." "I like X, they should keep it." "They should replace X with Y." "Anybody that likes X is dumb. Y is better." "Why don't they include both X and Y." "Yeah, everybody can be happy then!" "But I don't like X, they should remove it." "X really needs to be replaced with Y." "But they can include both X and Y." "But I don't like X, they need to remove it." "Remove X, I don't like it."
Until you've had an in-law tell you your choice of game was stupid, and just Warcraft on paper, and dumbed down for dumber players who can't handle a real RPG, you haven't lived.
Lady and gentlemen.... I present to you the Edition War without Contrition, the War of the Web, the Mighty Match-up!
We're using standard edition war rules. No posts of substance. Do not read the other person's posts with comprehension. Make frequent comparison to video games, MMOs, and CCGs. Use the words "fallacy" and "straw man", incorrectly and often. Passive aggressiveness gets you extra points and asking misleading and inflammatory questions is mandatory. If you're getting tired, just declare victory and leave the thread. Wait for the buzzer... and....
One, two, three, four, I declare Edition War Five, six, seven eight, I use the web to
D&D should not return to the days of blindfolding the DM and players. No tips on encounter power? No mention of expected party roles? No true meaning of level due to different level charts or tiered classes? Please, let's not sacrifice clear, helpful rules guidelines in favour of catering to the delicate sensibilities of the few who have problems with the ascetics of anything other than what they are familiar with.
Just a quick note on the MMORPG as an insult comparison...
MMORPGs, raking in money by the dumptruck full. Many options, tons of fans across many audiences, massive resources allocated to development.
TTRPGs, dying product. Squeaking out an existence that relys on low cost. Fans fit primarily into a few small demographics. R&D budgets small, often rushed to market and patched after deployment.
You're not really making much of an argument when you compare something to a MMORPG and assume people think that means bad. Lets face it, they make the money, have the audience and the budget. We here on this board are fans of TTRPGs but lets not try to pretend none of us play MMORPGs.
Something like Tactical Shift is more magical than martial healing.
Telling someone to move over a few feet is magical now? :|
I weep for this generation.
Given the laziness and morbid obsesity amongst D&Ders, being able to convince someone to get on their feet, do some heavy exercise, and use their words to make them be healthier must seem magical.
Mayhap a trifle indelicatly put, but it is undeniably accurate. More NPC's than PC's, while the PC's have barely entered the midrange of single-digit levels, and the NPC's are godlings, artifact bearers and the players can't even keep track of conversations due to the cast of overhwhelming characters hogging the spotlight.
The game is not supposed to be about the adventures of NPC's and their PC sidekicks - IT IS ABOUT THE DEEDS OF THE PLAYER CHARACTERS with ONE, maybe two NPC sidekicks. When the NPC's outnumber the PC's the DM has UTTERLY lost the point and the players should rise up and revolt. The NPC's being described - even if they are interesting, amusing and flawlessly portrayed ('tchya... right) are an unneeded and unwanted intrusion into the the very reason the PLAYERS are supposed to be sitting at the table - to enjoy playing out THEIR adventures, not being flies on the wall of NPC-led adventures. The party should not be saddled with permanent NPC party members unless it is necessary in order to assure the survival of the PC's against encounters COMPARABLE TO THIER OWN LEVEL. Even then the NPC's should not remain with the party any longer than necessary and should never dominate the gameplay with their own motivations, conversations, abilities and deeds.
Seriously, this is not a situation for gentle persuasion and patience. If YOU want to play D&D and not sit about while your DM masturbates with his NPC's you have to bring it to a screeching halt and start over. Now this can be handled with more or less tact.
First, speak with the other players. Ask their opinions on the ongoing situation and be SURE they are of like mind and willing to say and do what needs to be said and done if you all want to play D&D again with the same DM. Then speak with the DM. Don't ambush him and start making a lot of angry statements and recriminations. He needs to know flatly what he's doing wrong but he's not a puppy that you should need to rub his nose in it and hit him with the DMG. I'd suggest something along the lines of:
"DM, I'm afraid we've got an issue here. We've been talking and we're just not having fun. Our characters are following around a bunch of overpowered NPC's. We're not having our own adventures - we're just watching theirs. They do our fighting for us. We are unchallenged. We are bored because we just sit about and listen to THEM talk - or more accurately we listen to YOU talk to yourself and there are so many NPC's we can't even follow who's talking. We're only 4th/5th level and we've got a demigod, an artifact wielder, and two other NPC's that are dominating the game. The game is supposed to focus on OUR characters - not on YOUR NPC's. As fun and fascinating as those NPC's may be to YOU, they are killing the game for us and it has to end. We want adventures that feature OUR characters, not the NPC's.
"Since we've spoken about this before it should not be that much of a surprise that it has had to come down to this ultimatum. Either all four of the DMPC's depart immediately - never to intrude on OUR characters time in the spotlight again, AND never to be replaced by other NPC's who attach themselves to OUR party without OUR invitation - or else we can just start over. But seriously, it has to be one or the other."
Preferrably, this conversation would take place PRIOR to a game night so that he has a chance to absorb your challenge and hopefully prepare a new direction for your game (or a new game altogether), or at the very least come up with some other response. Don't let the game go even one more session with those NPC's though. That is simply not what anyone ever agrees to play D&D to do - take a backseat to the DM's NPC's, especially DMPC's that outnumber and vastly outpower the PLAYER characters, making them irrelevant.
Old School: It ain't what you play - it's how you play it.
My 1E Project: http://home.earthlink.net/~duanevp/dnd/Building%20D&D/buildingdnd.htm
