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11 months ago ::
Jul 19, 2012 - 11:20AM
#871
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Date Joined:
Jun 16, 2004
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2) Ensure that the current adventure is time-sensitive.
Certainly, time-sensitive adventures are a good plot strategy. However, for classes without daily resources (spells, for this example), it may seem.....awkward. Sure, time-sensitive adventures (TSA) may let noncasters shine, but really, it boils down to the fact that the DM is radically altering his/her narrative structure, encounter creation methodology, and pacing for the sole reason of keeping casters on a tight leash and preventing them from taking over the plot.
Gold is for the mistress, silver for the maid Copper for the craftsman, cunning at his trade." "Good!" said the Baron, sitting in his hall, "But Iron -- Cold Iron -- is master of them all." -Kipling Defenders: We ARE the wall! I've replaced the previous Edition Warring line in my sig with this one, because honestly, everybody needs to work together to make the D&D they like without trampling on somebody else's D&D. Miss d20 Modern? Take a look at Dias Ex Machina Game's UltraModern 4e! I am a hero, not a chump.
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11 months ago ::
Jul 19, 2012 - 11:38AM
#872
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Date Joined:
Feb 12, 2009
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Yeah this discussion has gone like this since the start of the tread: People who see 5MWD as a problem with the game rules: hey, this has been a long known problem with D&D. Here are some possible solutions to fix/alleviate the problem. People who do not see it as a problem: NO IT'S NOT. I have never seen it in my games. You all must be bad players/DMs/ not know how to roll play. You are clearly having badwrongfun. We should not do anything to fix this problem even though the solutions you propose would not adversely affect us (because we never experienced the problem anyway). It is sad really...
That is a mis-characterization.
Camp 2 just believes that it is a problem that is best handled through better adventure design, and not with an arbitrary game mechanic.
On or about page 30, SleepsInTraffic gave the challenge to the "5mwd is a big problem" crowd to come up with a example of a 5mwd problem that couldn't be addressed with better adventure design. It's page 80, and we're still waiting...
Yes, and the way that is explained sounds exactly like "you're doing it wrong". I'm sure we could do some thread archeology, but whatever. I think people should just not talk about other people's playing styles, at all. It is not anyone's business. All WotC can do is make a game that works for how people DO play. They could fill the whole core books with articles about how there's one right way to play, but I'm pretty sure I want a game, not an instruction manual on how I've been doing things 'wrong' for 35 years. So, I think the commentary on all sides should just remain limited to mechanics. If you don't have anything to say about those, then....
We might even produce some useful and clever thing. Who knows? Stranger things have happened...
Are you freaking kidding me, they are ****ing instruction manuals. The point is you can't come up with a scenario where encounter design or campaign design can't be used to rectify any problems, with little to no effect on your play style choices. Unless your choice is to break the game on purpose, and I can't stop you there nor could any mechanics ever. At no point should the system allow you to be bad at something. That is what you are saying right there. That's mostly what everyones been saying, "I shouldn't have to get better at encounter/campaign design in order to fix this problem they should invent an arbitrary mechanic that does it for me". Simply no. The game, like all games, is about self betterment. If you refuse to better your writing skills (campaign design) or math skills (encounter design) it is no one else's fault as to why your campaigns are falling apart due to a problem that wouldn't otherwise exist were you better at those things.
That is my major problem, every example I hear of the 5 minute workday sounds like either a terribly uncompelling story that I would grow bored of easily, or it is an encounter design issue where you are not making the combats compelling enough. SO I'm still waiting for an example that does not get fixed by being better at, at least, one of those two things. If you really don't want to have to do any work then your bigger concern should be the pre built adventures. That is where they actually have to be concerned about the 5 minute workday. other than that it is up to us to make it not an issue. There are many ways to do it, but it always comes from better writting and design on our end. Although I do like Lawolfes spell burn system. Although it should be a noted optional inclusion.
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11 months ago ::
Jul 19, 2012 - 12:02PM
#873
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Date Joined:
Aug 22, 2007
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It ALL comes down to this:
The easier and more favorable the system makes resting rather than continuing, the more incentives the DM must put on continuing and disincentives on resting
The incentives and disincentives the DM must create, the more likely the DM's incentives and disincentives can come of as contrived
The more likely the adventure motivations can come off as contrived, the more experienced and creative the DM must be
The more creative and experienced the DM must be to make a party motivated enough to continue, the larger the percentage of the chance of running into the 5 MWD
Orzel, Halfelven son of Zel, Mystic Ranger, Bane to Dragons, Death to Undeath, Killer of Abyssals, King of the Wilds.
Constitution Based Class for Next!
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11 months ago ::
Jul 19, 2012 - 12:03PM
#874
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Date Joined:
May 31, 2012
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I understand the mechanical argument against the "5 Minute Work Day" - people don't want an "abusable" mechanic that strongly promotes abusal. After all - why "not" stop and rest.
In past posts - I've promoted a "Condition" based D&D wherein you collect a series of modifiers that alter Hit Points (which I would rename to Hero Points - but that's a whole diatribe) based on roleplying conditions.
So - what I think the 5 Minute Work Day should recieve is a "Negative Condition" at the end. Personally - I'd call it Cowardly Caution - or Gross Opportunism - and it would give a minus to Hit Points until a condition was met (let's say 3 consecutive battles to regain your courage).
In 4th Edition rules - I'd House Rule the removal of all Action Points for the use of the 5 Minute Work Day. You're certainly no Action Hero if you rest after one encounter.
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However - I also understand SleepInTraffic. I've never actually dealt with the 5 Minute Work Day at my table.
The story always takes care of this wierd mechanic some gamers have to deal with.
So to that end I say: "The game works fine."
However - I'd also suggest that the game teach DMs and players what to expect from the abusal of this rule.
"5 Minute Work Day": If the players face one encounter and leave the dungeon - not only is it within the DM right, but should be considered a DM prerogative to modify the dungeon to suit the change in circumstance. This is an RPG - not a computer game - and world conditions change dynamically because of the actions of the players.
And - all encounters in future modules should have a "5 Minute Work Day" section where they suggest just such a scenario outcome.
Example: 5 Minute Work Day: If the players defeat the kobolds, but do not continue into the dungeon - the rest of the dungeon will be altered. Add 3 kobold crossbowmen to the next encounter, a kobold dragon shaman to the third encounter, etc.
If the players KEEP doing this - they should get the hint real quick that each time they leave - the encounters are becoming harder and harder to solve because they're giving the kobolds more time to prepare.
NOTE: "I" wouldn't run it this way. I'd have the kobold king uproot the tribe and go into hiding. Then - when they've nursed the dragon egg they filched - they'll turn the baby dragon on the unexpecting adventurers some time in the near future. The players "solved" the quest by making the kobolds leave - but they "lost" because the loot and XP is gone - and now a kobold leader is pissed at them and will take advantage of a moment of weakness to do to them - what they tried to do to him.
If the players can 5 Minute Work Day a dynamic storytelling world - so can the monsters.
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In short:
- Get rid of any dailies.
- Add a "cost" to using the 5 Minute Work Day
- Teach DMs/players how to use the story as a "cost".
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11 months ago ::
Jul 19, 2012 - 12:18PM
#875
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It ALL comes down to this: The easier and more favorable the system makes resting rather than continuing, the more incentives the DM must put on continuing and disincentives on resting The incentives and disincentives the DM must create, the more likely the DM's incentives and disincentives can come of as contrived The more likely the adventure motivations can come off as contrived, the more experienced and creative the DM must be The more creative and experienced the DM must be to make a party motivated enough to continue, the larger the percentage of the chance of running into the 5 MWD
This forum needs upvoting so I can bump this comment!
Let me rephrase it:
If a system problem can be solved by the DM significantly constraining his oprions, it's still a system problem.
Let me grant the grognards' point for the sake of argument: The way to solve martial/caster imbalance is to eliminate the 5 minute workday, which requires the DM to contrive adventures that run on a time limit. Let me also grant, merely for the sake of argument, that this will work.
- The solution that makes the system balanced is to contrive adventures that run on a time limit.
- Therefore the system requires the DM to contrive adventures that run on a time limit.
- Therefore the system limits the DM's choices significantly more than necessary.
Quod erat demonstrandum, it's a system problem.
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11 months ago ::
Jul 19, 2012 - 12:23PM
#876
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It ALL comes down to this: The easier and more favorable the system makes resting rather than continuing, the more incentives the DM must put on continuing and disincentives on resting The incentives and disincentives the DM must create, the more likely the DM's incentives and disincentives can come of as contrived The more likely the adventure motivations can come off as contrived, the more experienced and creative the DM must be The more creative and experienced the DM must be to make a party motivated enough to continue, the larger the percentage of the chance of running into the 5 MWD
This forum needs upvoting so I can bump this comment!
Let me rephrase it:
If a system problem can be solved by the DM significantly constraining his oprions, it's still a system problem.
Let me grant the grognards' point for the sake of argument: The way to solve martial/caster imbalance is to eliminate the 5 minute workday, which requires the DM to contrive adventures that run on a time limit. Let me also grant, merely for the sake of argument, that this will work.
- The solution that makes the system balanced is to contrive adventures that run on a time limit.
- Therefore the system requires the DM to contrive adventures that run on a time limit.
- Therefore the system limits the DM's choices significantly more than necessary.
Quod erat demonstrandum, it's a system problem.
I was just logging in to say basically this.
Can the 5MWD be solved with adventure design? YES.
Does this require a DM capable of said adventure design? Obviously.
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11 months ago ::
Jul 19, 2012 - 12:24PM
#877
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Well my point is that if any group needs to develop some tolerance for the desires of the other side it is some 4e people.
And that comes from the guy who goes ballistic at the mention of martial dailies and people being able to gain their second wind. Heh.
I have merely argued that there needs to be a way to avoid those kinds of things if thats what you want. I've not been going around saying it's bad design etc... I've said it breaks verisimilitude for a lot of us and thats true but a person's tolerance for that sort of thing varies. It's not a design issue. It's a playstyle issue. If the game has something in it that your or I hate and we can't remove it then thats going to be a big negative when it comes to getting us to buy the game or play it. Thats common sense.
Heroes of the Fallen Lands presents a Rogue (Thief) and two Fighter builds that avoid martial dailies. They still Second Wind, but you can choose NOT to ever do it. By the way, in my 3.5 campaign, the martial character, built from only PHB material, has dailies. He's a multiclassed rogue/barbarian with a few per-day magic items.
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11 months ago ::
Jul 19, 2012 - 12:29PM
#878
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@Lord_Daxl: you are missing some very key points. If you set up a 1 encounter day Vancian casters win. If you set up a many encounter day, they are tied. Fighter's HP is not infinite. In fact the 5e design goal has fighter's HP end when Vancian spells run out. At no point are they worse off. Also, why should the DM have to do more work to fight against poor system design. Wouldn't a system that the designers spend effort on to remove 5MWD be better than one where they don't?
Now there are a few easy mechanics you can provide to help eliminate 5MWD.
1) make sure no single spell can end or trivialize an encounter.
2) make daily spells about as powerful as other classes encounter abilities (the devs say they want casters to have spells in every encounter so not unreasonable at all)
3) if spells remain more powerful than encounter abilities penalize casters for using too many. (I suggest manaburn. You suffer 2x spell level manaburn damage after the 4th daily spell you cast in a 5 minute period)
4) remove daily abilities from other classes and switch to milestones based mechanics. (ex. start the day with 1 fate point. Spend it to use one special "daily strength" maneuver you know. Gain a fate points after every other significant challenge of the day).
5) allow some HP recovery after every fight. Right now there is a hard cap on how many fights per day you can have based on HP. So player A getting ganged up on in fight 1 may need to rest even though the rest of the party is good to go.
6) give bonus exp (or other rewards) for groups that have 4+ challenging encounters between extended rests.
7) make sure combat buff durations last for 1 minute at most so groups don't "chain pull".
None of these prevent you from having a 1 encounter a day game if you choose to run one. They do all help DMs who had issues with Novas and 5 minute work days.
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11 months ago ::
Jul 19, 2012 - 12:33PM
#879
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Date Joined:
Dec 13, 2003
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Here's how I solved the 5mwd in our playtest.
The party had an encounter with a band of orcs in a ruined town just outside of the Caves of Chaos (I was using the "gathering forces of an invading army" scenario). They fought the orcs, then left because they'd used a lot of their resources. Classic 5 Minute Work Day. There were a few Orcish survivors who fled the scene when the fight turned...the party chose not to pursue them.
When they reached the Caves the next day, they discovered that the cultists from Area K had been made aware of the incursion, and prepared a welcoming party of a bunch of zombies made from the orcs they killed the day before, some hobgoblins leading them about, and the Owlbear from the shunned caves. They decided it would be best to keep going, even though they'd gotten pretty beat on in this fight, because they didn't want to give the cultists more time to prepare ambushes like this. A couple members of the party went to infiltrate the cult, while the rest went to take on some of the tougher monsters in the caves in order to lessen the opposition and destabilize the very tenuous alliances the various tribes had.
After a few more encounters (taking on the ogre, then blundering into the goblin caves and getting practically the whole goblin tribe aware of them, then diverting the goblin's attention and heading into the hobgoblin caves instead, at which point they got surrounded and captured and had to escape because one of their guards got away) the party is returning to town to rest. The group infiltrating the cult is having a much more difficult time of it, but they've managed to release the Medusa (who is the leader of one of the Orc tribes and was kept hostage to ensure compliance) and raise a ruckus. This means that when the party returns, some major changes will have happened in the dynamics of the caves of chaos (the hobgoblins will be upset, the goblins will be at war with the kobolds, and the cultists will have to deal with the orcs turning on them and will fortify their position).
It's using dynamics like these that eliminate the 5MWD. Dugneons shouldn't be static places...they're full of creatures that will react to intrusions. The fights get progressively harder because the bad guys get time to entrench themselves, but the party learns more about the layout of the caves and the dynamics of the tribes within, and have the chance to tip the scales in one way or another. The 5MWD is only as effective as a DM lets it be.
What I find most frustrating about 4E is that I can see it includes the D&D game I've always wanted to play, but the game is so lathered in tatical combat rules that I have thus far been unable to coax the game I want out.
When the Cat's a Stray, the Mice will Pray
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11 months ago ::
Jul 19, 2012 - 12:35PM
#880
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Date Joined:
Aug 29, 2008
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Reading the last few pages of this thread, I think there is a problem, but the problem isn't the 5MWD itself. That is, the 5MWD can be prevented, but the underlying problem can't. That underlying problem is estimating appropriate pacing and matching expectations of pacing between players and DMs. I'd like the argument to shift to figuring out tools to make pacing easier without being overly constraining. Now, that's an interesting discussion that can come up with constructive ideas.
Oh, and I'm perfectly happy to adjust the "mechanical day" to lengths of time other than an in-game-universe day, depending on what is appropriate for the style of adventure being run. This really shouldn't be a stumbling block.
There are a few specific types of pacing problems that have come up:
1) Different expectations of pacing between players and DMs. Sometimes the players are too reckless or too conservative compared to what the DM expected. This is more of a DM style and communication problem than a mechanical problem (but it does lead to situation 2 below more often). A good DM should give some indication of what an appropriate pacing is.
2) The necessary pacing was too easy (boring adventure) or too hard (potential player deaths and hard feelings blaming the DM). This can be helped mechanically by providing some benefits as the party moves on instead of solely being a drain of resources. This can be story driven, but it helps to have something mechanically too -- some sort of partial recharge. Having a set of one-shot benefits also helps, but the rewards should be more than enough to replenish those resources.
3) Differential pacing concerns between different character types (eg casters vs melee). Having a caster with one big spell is a mistake, since the caster will be useless the rest of the time, and that's not fun. But having resources to manage can be fun, so make sure the caster isn't useless the rest of the time. Don't make the difference as big -- allow at-wills or unlimited 0th level spells or whatever you want to call them. (I've often argued that this was a problem with low-level casters in older editions, so I like the at-will/unlimited 0th level solution.) That way, the caster isn't useless, just less effective, which allows others to shine.
So, while some of the problem can be dealt with by clever DMs, there are some mechanical things that can help -- cookies as the party delves deeper into the dungeon, one-shot benefits that can be drawn upon, base skills that are less effective but not useless without those daily resources.
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