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12 months ago ::
Jul 16, 2012 - 4:16AM
#41
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The per-day classes will always use up their resources sooner, will always be more powerful, and will always force the atwill classes to end the day too soon.
Would people mind not speaking in such absolutes and instead be more general such as saying "in my experience" or "in the past at games I've been at" because time and time again I DO NOT see this happen. When only 1 character wants to rest and the rest of the party wants to push on I've seen that person be told "come on, we can take a few more fights." It is only when EVERYONE has per day resources that I've seen entire tables go "naah, let's rest right now. We have to rest right now. We've all used our dailies."
The categorical statement is true enough.
“The per-day classes ... *will always be more powerful* ....”
The per-day classes are systemically impossible to balance with non-per-day and break the equity among the players.
The will nova whenever they “need” to. And when they run out of power, they will always end the day too soon.
Even at tables where the per-day classes dont kill the game in 5 minutes, they still kill the game in 5 encounters, even while the day itself still has time for 95 more encounters. The per-day classes ruin every single adventure story that lacks 4 encounters per day. And they *always* end the day too soon.
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12 months ago ::
Jul 16, 2012 - 4:20AM
#42
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Even at tables where the per-day classes dont kill the game is 5 minutes, the still kill the game in 5 encounters, even while the day itself still has time for 95 more encounters. The per-day classes ruin every single adventure story that lacks 4 encounters per day. And *always* end the day too soon.
Speak for your own lack of DM skill. I have all kinds of tools that I use to make adventuring days last hours of game time. If they are going to put rules in to help new or bad DMs I'm okay with that as long as I can easily ignore them.
Kalex the Omen Dungeonmaster Extraordinaire Concerning Player Rules Bias
Show
Gaining victory through rules bias is a hollow victory and they know it.
The argument goes, that some idiot at the table might claim that because there is a "default" that is the only true way to play D&D. An idiotic misconception that should be quite easy to disprove just by reading the rules, coming to these forums, or sending a quick note off to Customer Support and sharing the inevitable response with the group. BTW, I'm not just talking about Next when I say this. Of course, D&D has always been this way since at least the late 70's when I began playing.
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12 months ago ::
Jul 16, 2012 - 4:21AM
#43
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Even at tables where the per-day classes dont kill the game is 5 minutes, the still kill the game in 5 encounters, even while the day itself still has time for 95 more encounters. The per-day classes ruin every single adventure story that lacks 4 encounters per day. And *always* end the day too soon.
Speak for your own lack of DM skill. I have all kinds of tools that I use to make adventuring days last hours of game time. If they are going to put rules in to help new or bad DMs I'm okay with that as long as I can easily ignore them.
I will speak as someone who understands systemic design.
And who has witnessed the dominance of per-day casters in every pre-4e game I have ever played. Regardless of DM.
In 4e, the specific number of encounters per day that the adventure story must have - no matter how silly in narrative context - at least made Fighters per-day too. So, at least the classes ruined the story together.
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12 months ago ::
Jul 16, 2012 - 4:25AM
#44
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Even at tables where the per-day classes dont kill the game is 5 minutes, the still kill the game in 5 encounters, even while the day itself still has time for 95 more encounters. The per-day classes ruin every single adventure story that lacks 4 encounters per day. And *always* end the day too soon.
Speak for your own lack of DM skill. I have all kinds of tools that I use to make adventuring days last hours of game time. If they are going to put rules in to help new or bad DMs I'm okay with that as long as I can easily ignore them.
I will speak as someone who understands systemic design.
And who has witnessed the dominance of per-day casters in every single game I have ever played. Regardless of DM.
I understand systemic design as well, and this is a problem that no system can resolve, not even through lack of vancian casting. If players are allowed by circumstance to take a rest every 5 minutes, they will. This is a cultural problem at individual tables, or a personality defect among individuals. No rule can address that. However, addressing the non-rules root causes of these issues can address and successfully end the issue. As I have proven at my own table.
Kalex the Omen Dungeonmaster ExtraordinaireConcerning Player Rules Bias
Show
Gaining victory through rules bias is a hollow victory and they know it.
The argument goes, that some idiot at the table might claim that because there is a "default" that is the only true way to play D&D. An idiotic misconception that should be quite easy to disprove just by reading the rules, coming to these forums, or sending a quick note off to Customer Support and sharing the inevitable response with the group. BTW, I'm not just talking about Next when I say this. Of course, D&D has always been this way since at least the late 70's when I began playing.
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12 months ago ::
Jul 16, 2012 - 4:27AM
#45
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Even at tables where the per-day classes dont kill the game is 5 minutes, the still kill the game in 5 encounters, even while the day itself still has time for 95 more encounters. The per-day classes ruin every single adventure story that lacks 4 encounters per day. And *always* end the day too soon.
Speak for your own lack of DM skill. I have all kinds of tools that I use to make adventuring days last hours of game time. If they are going to put rules in to help new or bad DMs I'm okay with that as long as I can easily ignore them.
I will speak as someone who understands systemic design.
And who has witnessed the dominance of per-day casters in every single game I have ever played. Regardless of DM.
I understand systemic design as well, and this is a problem that no system can resolve, not even through lack of vancian casting. If players are allowed by circumstance to take a rest every 5 minutes, they will. This is a cultural problem at individual tables, or a personality defect among individuals. No rule can address that. However, addressing the non-rules root causes of these issues can address and successfully end the issue. As I have proven at my own table.
Just get rid of the 24-hour mechanic. It is that simple.
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12 months ago ::
Jul 16, 2012 - 4:28AM
#46
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Just get rid of the 24-hour mechanic. It is that simple.
Actually it is much simpler than that, and requires no rule book space at all.
Kalex the Omen Dungeonmaster ExtraordinaireConcerning Player Rules Bias
Show
Gaining victory through rules bias is a hollow victory and they know it.
The argument goes, that some idiot at the table might claim that because there is a "default" that is the only true way to play D&D. An idiotic misconception that should be quite easy to disprove just by reading the rules, coming to these forums, or sending a quick note off to Customer Support and sharing the inevitable response with the group. BTW, I'm not just talking about Next when I say this. Of course, D&D has always been this way since at least the late 70's when I began playing.
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12 months ago ::
Jul 16, 2012 - 4:29AM
#47
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Date Joined:
Oct 17, 2007
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I fail to see how this EFFECTIVELY discourages the 5 minute work day. Telling the PCs "alright, don't rest every fight and I'll let you get all your stuff back every second fight" is saying to those PCs that metagame "you win. If you play along, I'll give you what you want."
I still see this as a problem with the player mentality rather than the mechanics. I have never seen the 5 minute work day problem outside of LFR.
Few things:
1. Encounters powers are not about resource management bacause players will aim to burn as many as they can within a single encounter. So, as you say, the same can be achived with at-wills in terms of balance. Encounters powers just allow for more variety and tactical options, but that's down to personal preference.
2. Milesones don't have to be every 2 encounters (4E style). They don't even need to be every x encounters. Also players may or may not be aware about when the next milestone will trigger so that means they will have to manage their resources as best as they can moving forward in the adventure.
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12 months ago ::
Jul 16, 2012 - 4:30AM
#48
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Just get rid of the 24-hour mechanic. It is that simple.
Actually it is much simpler than that, and requires no rule book space at all.
Right, you advocate DMs must sacrifice narratively credible adventure stories, in order to keep on fighting the mechanics of the game.
No, thank you.
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12 months ago ::
Jul 16, 2012 - 4:36AM
#49
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Right, you advocate DMs must ceaselessly sacrifice credible adventure stories, in order to keep on fighting the mechanics of the game.
No, thank you.
LOL way to misrepresent! Actually my approach allows for any conceivable story to be told without a 5-minute work day ever occurring, and uses no rules. Sounds like the perfect solution to me, but you go ahead and keep believing that a rule is necessary. Any rule you can present me with I will find a way to exploit in a matter of minutes.
Do you advocate getting rid of hit points too? Any kind of damage tracking? Those are daily resources too, or worse yet in 1e they could be much worse than daily since if there was no cleric, or the cleric died you were stuck with unbelievably slow natural healing.
You can't win against 24-hour mechanics unless you are not playing D&D.
Kalex the Omen Dungeonmaster ExtraordinaireConcerning Player Rules Bias
Show
Gaining victory through rules bias is a hollow victory and they know it.
The argument goes, that some idiot at the table might claim that because there is a "default" that is the only true way to play D&D. An idiotic misconception that should be quite easy to disprove just by reading the rules, coming to these forums, or sending a quick note off to Customer Support and sharing the inevitable response with the group. BTW, I'm not just talking about Next when I say this. Of course, D&D has always been this way since at least the late 70's when I began playing.
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12 months ago ::
Jul 16, 2012 - 4:36AM
#50
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Date Joined:
Mar 26, 2008
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The per-day classes are systemically impossible to balance with non-per-day and break the equity among the players.
My experience in Pathfinder says this is untrue. One of the most overpowered characters? A fighter who specialises in using a longbow!
The will nova whenever they “need” to. And when they run out of power, they will always end the day too soon.
I have only seen this in LFR.
Even at tables where the per-day classes dont kill the game in 5 minutes, they still kill the game in 5 encounters, even while the day itself still has time for 95 more encounters. The per-day classes ruin every single adventure story that lacks 4 encounters per day. And they *always* end the day too soon.
I can only conclude that either:
- WotC is the worst company at making D&D games before 4th ed and that Paizo have fixed Pathfinder so it far surpasses the mere offerings of 3.5e
- That this problem is nowhere near as much of a problem as people believe it is.
In 4e, the specific number of encounters per day that the adventure story must have - no matter how silly in narrative context - at least made Fighters per-day too. So, at least the classes ruined the story together.
I think the problem is your gaming group and not the systems you play. This is the only way I can reconile what you've experienced and what I've experienced. Or maybe my numerous groups which contain a wide variety of people all with different backgrounds and playing styles are somehow the most awesome group and don't automatically metagame their way into breaking the gaming system they play.
If I've managed to fluke into playing in the few groups that can handle 4th ed styles and 3.5e styles without breaking the system, that's pertty lucky for me and makes me feel pretty special.
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