I've seen leaders with good initiative (for themselves) and movement, and the party hated it because their inits still sucked. The warlord would hand them over to the enemy and they'd all get beaten on before their turn, basically just saving the enemy a move action. There's still some tactical benefit to ally placement, but it really shines when those allies have good init as well.
Realistically, if your strikers don't have good init, they're probably doing it wrong. Most strikers either come with the option of Dex prime/secondary (blackguards and warlocks are the only ones that do neither that I can think of out-of-hand), or have the option of snagging an alternate init feat (battlewise, Imprious Majesty, etc). If they dont, there's always the go-to of improved init. There are about a gazillion items that give init bonuses as well, in addition to themes, feats, items, backrounds, and countless other ways of rerolling init.
Either way, it's the party member's individual responsiblility to have a good init modifier, not the leader's (unless they're a warlord or an elf.) and if they get put into good position by the leader, and then get brutally murdered by the enemy because they didn't juice init enough, that's really their own fault. This isn't to say that the leader might have wanted to hold off on the positioning power, knowing that his allies rolled crap init that encounter, but the core problem is still on the head of the other players, not the leader.
I've seen leaders with good initiative (for themselves) and movement, and the party hated it because their inits still sucked. The warlord would hand them over to the enemy and they'd all get beaten on before their turn, basically just saving the enemy a move action. There's still some tactical benefit to ally placement, but it really shines when those allies have good init as well.
Realistically, if your strikers don't have good init, they're probably doing it wrong. Most strikers either come with the option of Dex prime/secondary (blackguards and warlocks are the only ones that do neither that I can think of out-of-hand), or have the option of snagging an alternate init feat (battlewise, Imprious Majesty, etc). If they dont, there's always the go-to of improved init. There are about a gazillion items that give init bonuses as well, in addition to themes, feats, items, backrounds, and countless other ways of rerolling init.
Either way, it's the party member's individual responsiblility to have a good init modifier, not the leader's (unless they're a warlord or an elf.) and if they get put into good position by the leader, and then get brutally murdered by the enemy because they didn't juice init enough, that's really their own fault. This isn't to say that the leader might have wanted to hold off on the positioning power, knowing that his allies rolled crap init that encounter, but the core problem is still on the head of the other players, not the leader.
Should I refute this or does someone else want to?
But i agree that init > movement. 1/2 a turn > 1move action.
Also the fact that warlords can get superior init for the whole group saves 4 feats. Even Dex based char's will enjoy it, since Dex is not enough by itself.
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way. Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken. Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken. King Fisher Does an excellent job at keeping an enemy disabled in a few ways. Strong. Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading. Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered. Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square. Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong. Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked. Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic. Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation. Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses. Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat. Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent. Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof. Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it. Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways. Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful. The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken. Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken Unnamed Avenger|Runepriest/Hammer of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered. Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5. Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong. Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight, only far more broken. Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken. Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way. Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken. Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken. King Fisher Does an excellent job at keeping an enemy disabled in a few ways. Strong. Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading. Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered. Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square. Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong. Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked. Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic. Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation. Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses. Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat. Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent. Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof. Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it. Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways. Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful. The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken. Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken Unnamed Avenger|Runepriest/Hammer of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered. Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5. Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong. Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight, only far more broken. Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken. Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.
Also the fact that warlords can get superior init for the whole group saves 4 feats. Even Dex based char's will enjoy it, since Dex is not enough by itself.
I totally agree that it's awesome to have a warlord who'se optimized their init to give everyone a nice big bonus. That being said, if the players roll terrible, and can't reroll it, and have no way of giving themselves a way around a trashy init, that's their fault, not the warlords. With how ludicrously important winning init is after heroic teir, and how easy it is to do, one can't simply blame the leader.
If the leader does what leaders do on turn 1 (grant you some kind of dramatic advantage normally, like a big damage buff, a big debuff for enemies, superior positioning, etc), and the rest of the party's init sucks so bad that they can't take advantage of that big boost, that is entirely the fault of those players, not the leader. Yes, bad luck happens, but so do init rerolls.
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Please tell me zelink, why would any striker want to have bad initiative at level 11+? Focusing fire before the enemies can crap all over you with encounter and recharge powers is an important part of the game, as I'm sure you know. I can't think of any good reason for strikers to have low init unless it was tactically advantageous in a very specific circumstance to do so (at which point people with high init can just delay, and be better off in every other encounter they face.) My point stands; if you're playing a striker and have garbage init, you're probably doing it wrong.
You don't try for bad init. But Spending the resources necessary to go first isn't feasible on a striker chassis. It simply isn't. 1 Is common, 2 is rare, and anything more is unfeasible. Besides, every other role wants to go before you.
And that's exactly what I'm trying to do here: Emulate the "Switch" builds. I was trying to rebuild the Tenacious Troubador from a few years back with some updates that help to get allies into position in addition to unleashing hell on the enemy from turn one.
I'll post the full build further down, but I'm heavily committed to Half-Elf for Vers. Dilettante and as a prerequisite for Sidhe Lord. The goal of the build was to use Inspire by Example as often as possible. To that end, I've picked up The Vistani feats at epic (for two AP's after an extended rest), MC Cleric (For Symbol of Victory @ paragon and BCL @ epic), and Sidhe Lord for Sidhe Bargain to keep the Action Points flowing as well as possible. From levels 13-15, you can basically force a crit due to DfTS and a hefty attack bonus from your opening round's action point. From 16 on, my hope was to be able to use 2 AP an encounter for any number of combats. Action Point generation would basically look like this: Level 16 combat 1: Start with one, Gain one on forced Crit. Level 16 combat 2: Start with zero, Gain one from Bargain; Gain one on forced Crit. Level 16 combat 3: Start with one, Gain one on forced Crit. Level 16 combat 4: Start with zero, Gain one from Bargain; Gain one on forced Crit. Etc., Etc.
At epic it would get easier, since you start with two. You don't need to resort to stealing allies AP's until at least combat 3.
====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ====== Speed Metal Half-Elf Bard Warlord2, level 30 Half-Elf, Bard|Warlord, War Chanter, Warmaster Hybrid Bard: Hybrid Bard Will Warlord Leadership: Battlefront Leader (Hybrid) Hybrid Warlord: Hybrid Warlord Will Hybrid Talent: Bardic Virtue Bardic Virtue: Virtue of Valor Half-Elf Power Selection: Dilettante
FINAL ABILITY SCORES Str 10, Con 26, Dex 12, Int 13, Wis 15, Cha 26.
STARTING ABILITY SCORES Str 8, Con 16, Dex 10, Int 11, Wis 13, Cha 16.
FEATS Level 1: Melee Training (Charisma) Level 2: Hybrid Talent Level 4: Combat Virtuoso Level 6: Battle Song Expertise Level 8: Strength of Valor (retrained to Versatile Master at Level 11) Level 10: Improved Initiative (retrained to Superior Initiative at Level 23) Level 11: Improved Battlefront Shift (retrained to Shift the Field at Level 21) Level 12: Initiate of the Faith (retrained to Multiclass Mastery at Level 22) Level 14: Deft Blade Level 16: Improved Defenses Level 18: Fight On Level 20: Vistani Heritage Level 21: Vistani Foresight Multiclass Mastery: Divine Healer Multiclass Mastery: Novice Power Level 22: Call to Glory Level 24: Supreme Inspiration Level 26: Martial Mastery Level 28: Epic Reflexes
POWERS Dilettante: Magic Weapon Hybrid at-will 1: Direct the Strike Hybrid at-will 1: Staggering Note Hybrid encounter 1: Vengeance is Mine Hybrid daily 1: Arrow of Warning Hybrid utility 2: Cunning Adjustment (retrained to Sidhe Bargain at Level 10) Hybrid encounter 3: Echoing Weapon Hybrid daily 5: Scent of Victory Hybrid utility 6: Revitalizing Incantation Hybrid encounter 7: Prescient Warning Hybrid daily 9: Wail of Anguish Hybrid utility 10: Tactical Orders Hybrid encounter 13: Death from Two Sides (replaces Echoing Weapon) Hybrid daily 15: War Master's Assault (replaces Arrow of Warning) Hybrid utility 16: Mantle of Unity Hybrid encounter 17: Hail of Steel (replaces Vengeance is Mine) Hybrid daily 19: Band of Fellows (replaces Scent of Victory) Hybrid utility 22: Climactic Chord Hybrid encounter 23: Rhythm of Disorientation (replaces Prescient Warning) Hybrid daily 25: Frenzied Rhythm (replaces Wail of Anguish) Hybrid encounter 27: Surge of Valor (replaces Rhythm of Disorientation) Hybrid daily 29: Deific Rallying (replaces Band of Fellows)
ITEMS Hero's Elemental Drake Armor +6, Echoing Songblade Rapier +6, Lilting Songblade Dagger +4 (4), Bracers of Mental Might (heroic tier), Boots of Quickness (epic tier), Circlet of Arkhosia (epic tier), Timeless Locket +6, Shadow Band, Ring of Free Time (epic tier), Belt of Vim (epic tier), Symbol of Victory +2, Backlash Tattoo (heroic tier), Hero's Gauntlets (paragon tier), Gloves of the Healer (epic tier) ====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======
The main idea is to use Magic Weapon on the same turn that you spend an AP, for a massive attack and damage bonus that'll carry through to your next round for another big multiple ally Hail of Steel, or whatever party enabling power you decide to use.
If anyone sees any glaring issues, or things I've overlooked, please let me know. Also, I'm notorious for loading characters down in the CB with items that don't really represent actual character wealth. I like to shop I guess.
This character was originally built with Combat Leader instead of of Battlefront Leader, was it a mistake to switch?
From 16 on, my hope was to be able to use 2 AP an encounter for any number of combats. Action Point generation would basically look like this: Level 16 combat 1: Start with one, Gain one on forced Crit. Level 16 combat 2: Start with zero, Gain one from Bargain; Gain one on forced Crit. Level 16 combat 3: Start with one, Gain one on forced Crit. Level 16 combat 4: Start with zero, Gain one from Bargain; Gain one on forced Crit. Etc., Etc.
The Symbol of Victory power is daily and gives the AP to the person who got the crit, which is your ally for DfTS. So, unless I have missed something, your AP generation is not what you think it will be.
