Either way, it's the party member's individual responsiblility to have a good init modifier, not the leader's (unless they're a warlord or an elf.) and if they get put into good position by the leader, and then get brutally murdered by the enemy because they didn't juice init enough, that's really their own fault. This isn't to say that the leader might have wanted to hold off on the positioning power, knowing that his allies rolled crap init that encounter, but the core problem is still on the head of the other players, not the leader.
It's a team game. It may make you feel better to say it was the other guy's fault that you TPK'ed, but it's still a TPK and you're dead too.
In other words, work with your party rather than blaming them for not being up to your standards. Especially in parties with varying levels of optimization. Personally, with most classes I loathe wasting a precious low-level feat on init boosting because d20+4 is still swingy as hell, but that's just me.
My LFR Warlord is level 20 and her Initiative can only really be overturned by the Wizard. If we get into a Surprise round (and we are the ones with surprise), she can move the entire party into position at the bad guys so their surprise round action can be "I use my high-damage encounter power" instead of, "I charge." or "I move."
Also, it is a team game. Definitely. I agree 100%. Make sure, though, that the "team" includes at least one defender or another leader. A party of 4 strikers and a leader does not do so well (even if someone in CharOp says the math should work to your favor having four strikers. It doesn't. I know. My LFR Warlord died with a table setup like this.)
From my anecdotical point of view, there are plenty of tough strikers around, and my warlord has been in a party with nothing but strikers as well and it was complete overkill on our part. I suppose it kind of depends on whether their damage output is high enough to support it and if they are smart enough to have at least one feat or power that either makes them tougher or adds control effects to their attacks.
Speaking of warlords, are you going to continue updating the warlord's handbook, Zelink? I'm kind of curious for your opinion on the higher level powers other than hail of steel
Sorry Zelink, the correct reply was "Surprise exists in LFR?"
In the entirety of Paragon (not counting BIs) there are 3 surprise rounds available to the PCs, if your DM has given you more than that, he's cheating in your favor.
Which isn't to say that the Leader going first, buffing, and then catapulting the party isn't 100% a good tactic to have available. I'm not entirely certain who is arguing which side, since I really don't feel like reading a bad tactical argument, but the idea that this tactic isn't a good idea because "if the enemies go between you and the striker, they can pound the striker into the ground" is utterly ludicrous. Don't play stupidly. Tactical decisions (ie. the job of the leader using the movement powers) can't be described in absolutes because not every combat is the same, at AL 21 if you go at 45 and the nearest ally is 35, chances are some enemies are going between, don't just launch the Striker adjacent to 2 enemies, save your RoTA or Concoction, or Whatever for later in the fight (probably, no absolutes!). Then again, at Paragon/Epic, a PC ought to be able to take a full round of being focused by a group of Standards, statistically speaking anyway since 3 successful hits will KO nearly any striker.
tl;dr - Create characters on the assumption that you'll get to be awesome more often than not, don't plan for failure, just be prepared for it.
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.
Ok, so after a few days of playing around on the CB, I've got a pretty clear picture of what a Hybrid Bard|Warlord looks like compared to the straight Bard. Both are pretty powerful, but I think the lazy warlord hybrid stillbrings more power than the bard can muster. The hybrid has mass enabling, party movement, and amazing overkill buffing as well as increasing party initiative. The straight bard misses out on the initiative increase, but does just as well on the other ends.
I think in epic tier, the straight bard would have alot more going for it; with a Magic Weapon -> AP -> Hail of Steel -> | Magic Weapon -> AP -> Hail of Steel thing going on.
I finally decided that AP generation is kinda tough to do (probably by design) and I should just nab AP's from a friendly player, out of combat if possible. I'm not sure if all players would consider this a worthy trade, but I think if I were playing my defender, I'd give up my AP for the group to have a Beatdown Party every combat.
Anyways, here are the two builds I've been toying with over the last few days. Pick them apart if you have the inclination. Let me know if things are way out of order, or if I've made any bad selections.
====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ====== Half Elf Bard of War, level 30 Half-Elf, Bard, War Chanter, Warmaster Bardic Virtue: Virtue of Valor Signs of Influence: Ritual Beneficiary Signs of Influence: Welcome Guest Signs of Influence: Demand Audience Signs of Influence: Attract Attendants Half-Elf Power Selection: Dilettante Noble Bred for War Benefit: Weapon Proficiency (Rapier) Background: Noble Bred for War (Noble Bred for War Benefit)
FINAL ABILITY SCORES Str 10, Con 26, Dex 13, Int 15, Wis 12, Cha 26.
STARTING ABILITY SCORES Str 8, Con 16, Dex 11, Int 13, Wis 10, Cha 16.
FEATS Bard: Ritual Caster Level 1: Battle Song Expertise Level 2: Combat Virtuoso Level 4: Improved Initiative (retrained to Superior Initiative at Level 21) Level 6: Resourceful Leader Level 8: Student of Artifice Level 10: Acolyte Power Level 11: Versatile Master Level 12: Novice Power Level 14: Deft Blade Level 16: Adept Power Level 18: Improved Defenses Level 20: Vistani Heritage Level 21: Vistani Foresight Level 22: Martial Mastery Level 24: Call to Glory Level 26: Epic Reflexes Level 28: Action Surge Level 30: Supreme Majesty
POWERS Bard at-will 1: War Song Strike Bard at-will 1: Staggering Note Dilettante: Magic Weapon Bard encounter 1: Shout of Triumph Bard daily 1: Arrow of Warning Bard utility 2: Concerted Effort (retrained to Sidhe Bargain at Level 11) Bard encounter 3: Rhyme of the Blood-Seeking Blade Bard daily 5: Song of Discord Bard utility 6: Revitalizing Incantation Bard encounter 7: Prescient Warning Bard daily 9: Wail of Anguish Bard utility 10: Mantle of Unity (retrained to Slick Concoction at Acolyte Power) Bard encounter 13: Harmony of the Two (retrained to Death from Two Sides at Novice Power) (replaces Shout of Triumph) Bard daily 15: Whispers of the Dream King (retrained to War Master's Assault at Adept Power) (replaces Arrow of Warning) Bard utility 16: Heroic Interjection Bard encounter 17: Word of Vulnerability (retrained to Hail of Steel at Novice Power) (replaces Prescient Warning) Bard daily 19: Increasing the Tempo (replaces Song of Discord) Bard utility 22: Climactic Chord Bard encounter 23: Rhythm of Disorientation (replaces Rhyme of the Blood-Seeking Blade) Bard daily 25: Frenzied Rhythm (replaces Wail of Anguish) Bard encounter 27: Surge of Valor (replaces Rhyme of the Blood-Seeking Blade) Bard daily 29: Shockwave Strike (replaces Whispers of the Dream King)
ITEMS Ritual Book, Lilting Songblade Rapier +6, Hero's Templar Mail Armor +6, Iron Armbands of Power (epic tier), Boots of Quickness (epic tier), Gloves of the Healer (epic tier), Timeless Locket +6, Shield of Fellowship Light Shield (paragon tier), Shared Valor Templar Mail Armor +6, Circlet of Arkhosia (epic tier) ====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======
====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ====== Speed Metal Half-Elf Bard Warlord, level 30 Half-Elf, Bard|Warlord, War Chanter, Warmaster Hybrid Bard: Hybrid Bard Will Warlord Leadership: Combat Leader (Hybrid) Hybrid Warlord: Hybrid Warlord Will Hybrid Talent: Bardic Virtue Bardic Virtue: Virtue of Valor Half-Elf Power Selection: Dilettante Quickened Spellcasting: Magic Weapon
FINAL ABILITY SCORES Str 10, Con 26, Dex 12, Int 15, Wis 13, Cha 26.
STARTING ABILITY SCORES Str 8, Con 16, Dex 10, Int 13, Wis 11, Cha 16.
FEATS Level 1: Melee Training (Charisma) Level 2: Hybrid Talent Level 4: Adept Dilettante Level 6: Battle Song Expertise Level 8: Improved Initiative (retrained to Superior Initiative at Level 21) Level 10: Acolyte Power (retrained to Multiclass Mastery at Level 22) Level 11: Combat Commander Level 12: Versatile Master Level 14: Fight On Level 16: Superior Will Level 18: Improved Defenses Level 20: Vistani Heritage Level 21: Vistani Foresight Multiclass Mastery: Student of Artifice Multiclass Mastery: Acolyte Power Level 22: Quickened Spellcasting Level 24: Call to Glory Level 26: Supreme Inspiration Level 28: Epic Reflexes
POWERS Dilettante: Magic Weapon Hybrid at-will 1: Direct the Strike Hybrid at-will 1: Staggering Note Hybrid encounter 1: Vengeance is Mine Hybrid daily 1: Arrow of Warning Hybrid utility 2: Encouraging Boost (retrained to Sidhe Bargain at Level 16) Hybrid encounter 3: Echoing Weapon Hybrid daily 5: Scent of Victory Hybrid utility 6: Revitalizing Incantation Hybrid encounter 7: Prescient Warning Hybrid daily 9: Wail of Anguish Hybrid utility 10: Tactical Orders (retrained to Slick Concoction at Acolyte Power) Hybrid encounter 13: Death from Two Sides (replaces Echoing Weapon) Hybrid daily 15: War Master's Assault (replaces Arrow of Warning) Hybrid utility 16: Heroic Interjection Hybrid encounter 17: Hail of Steel (replaces Vengeance is Mine) Hybrid daily 19: Band of Fellows (replaces Scent of Victory) Hybrid utility 22: Climactic Chord Hybrid daily 25: Frenzied Rhythm (replaces Wail of Anguish) Hybrid encounter 27: Surge of Valor (replaces Death from Two Sides) Hybrid daily 29: Break it Up (replaces Band of Fellows)
ITEMS Bracers of Mental Might (heroic tier), Boots of Quickness (epic tier), Circlet of Arkhosia (epic tier), Timeless Locket +6, Gloves of the Healer (epic tier), Shared Valor Templar Mail Armor +6, Solitaire (Violet) (epic tier), Lilting Songblade Rapier +6 ====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======
Am I way off base here? It really seems to me that the hybrid does more for the team than the straight bard. I'm really not trying to be dense Zathris and Zelink. I do understand that strength warlords are a cut above lazylords, but in this circumstance I think the "lazy" hybrid just does more.
It does Init more but Nova less. If you're looking at level 30 it's going to be fairly indistinguishable (actually, the strait Bard should have Valorous Charge from Cleric at that point)
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.
Is it the fact that Valorous Charge lets allies charge that gives it the edge over Surge of Valor, or the defensive boost? Surge of Valor is definitely the more offensively bent pick between the two.
