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Jul 15, 2012 -- 1:33AM, BhaelFire wrote:

And yeah, more naked people.

This is a FANTASY game...not a "politically correct, let's try not to offend people" game.

In other words I want to see more chainmail bikinis on buxom broads...and half-robed dudes with bloodied axes and furrowed brows.

Yeah, and more 300 (or 1,800 Abdominal Muscles, as I call it) types (men in tiny pants).

Jul 15, 2012 -- 1:33AM, BhaelFire wrote:

Jul 15, 2012 -- 1:14AM, Steely_Dan wrote:

I would like more black & white line drawings, like Jeff Dee (love his work in the 1st Ed Deities & Demigods).

And more nakedness, for everyone. 

+1 

LOL

Jim Holloway's b/w art was freaking awesome.

And yeah, more naked people.

This is a FANTASY game...not a "politically correct, let's try not to offend people" game.

In other words I want to see more chainmail bikinis on buxom broads...and half-robed dudes with bloodied axes and furrowed brows.

This is supposed to be an art appreciation thread. Can we keep the politics out of it, please?

Thanks,

Z.

Jul 15, 2012 -- 5:40AM, Zerozobbb wrote:

This is supposed to be an art appreciation thread. Can we keep the politics out of it, please?

Thanks,

Why are you saying thanks, when we haven't granted your "request" yet?

Anyway, nothing wrong with a bit of titillation in D&D (it's good enough for advertising), totally healthy.

Ehh, the anime thing is where I draw the line. I don't mind some of the more cartoon-y artwork but I loath anime. I know that's not the case for all (or even most?) D&D players, but anime is such a niche genre and fanbase I can't support its inclusion in the D&D books.

Just a couple more things from me.  Nudity in D&D?  Why not?  But, it depends how its portrayed.  If it's shown as part of the art/natural beauty a la classical art, why not?  But, if it's hot poses and other nonsense... not so much.  I find the chainmail bikini/not-even-loincloth (for guys) to be silly.  Perhaps in downtime this is acceptable, but the outside world is dangerous!  If you're only wearing enough cloth to cover various areas, you're in trouble compared to the person whose equiped with more armor.  Now, as for "anime".  It's not a genre, it's a form of animation... or really an umbrella term for eastern animation typically from Japan.  Now, some art within a proper D&D genre wouldn't be bad at all, it'd be great!  Not to mention, many anime artists have crafted beautiful works of out that help to embody the fantastic (Miyazaki is a good example.)  Now, before you shout "Weeaboo Fightan Magic" at me, do a little research

Jul 15, 2012 -- 8:24AM, jfriant wrote:

Ehh, the anime thing is where I draw the line. I don't mind some of the more cartoon-y artwork but I loath anime. I know that's not the case for all (or even most?) D&D players, but anime is such a niche genre and fanbase I can't support its inclusion in the D&D books.

Anime and cartoony wouldn't be my first choices, but I could put up with them if there's enough people interested in including them.

Foglio did the art for GURPS IOU and it matched the tone of the game perfectly.  I don't think it would have worked as well for GURPS Black Ops.

Jul 15, 2012 -- 9:14AM, DoctorNecrotic wrote:

Not to mention, many anime artists have crafted beautiful works of out that help to embody the fantastic (Miyazaki is a good example.)  Now, before you shout "Weeaboo Fightan Magic" at me, do a little research

I don't have to research what aesthetic I find appealing, because it's an opinion. If you like anime "style" (sorry for using the word "genre" - didn't realize it was going to incite such a fervent response), that's fine. I do not, nor would I like to see it in the D&D books. What I should have said, is I find anime to be a rather polarizing style: as in you like it or you don't. Because I personally do not like it, I would say I do not want to see it in the D&D books. It was meant as a comparison to the early discussion about the more exotic or high fantasy aspects of the game, that I also don't really care for but can occasionally find some of it that I enjoy and thus would still like to see it included.

I'm not saying anime sucks and I'm not saying if it's in the books I would flat out refuse to buy them (particularly if it's not entirely anime style) all I said was because I find it to be polarizing, I personally would not like to see it included. Savvy?

Jul 15, 2012 -- 12:47AM, DoctorBadWolf wrote:

snipp
Dragon: I'd rather go the other way around, if forced to choose.

you talking to me here???

you'd rather have the class art??? the single arts??





its all meh though. I'd prefer a full page art of each race's sub groups, ethinc groups. though in humans it would hav et o be limited anyway.....

or have only two and have them covered from head to toe in armor that you can't tell where they came from until of course you get to the setting books and it shows off their ethnic groups of humans and all what not.

but really thats going to be no worst than havimng to sit through another   that company abc could/should ddo this becuase its the right thing to do discussion, which this is not one so anybody who reads this post, don't take it the wrong way.....





anime art in dnd????? ick I'll put my foot down and not buy it. If I want anime art, I know where to go find beyond anima...                

Jul 15, 2012 -- 5:45AM, Steely_Dan wrote:

Jul 15, 2012 -- 5:40AM, Zerozobbb wrote:

This is supposed to be an art appreciation thread. Can we keep the politics out of it, please?

Thanks,

Why are you saying thanks, when we haven't granted your "request" yet?

Anyway, nothing wrong with a bit of titillation in D&D (it's good enough for advertising), totally healthy.

Zerro is right. This is a thread about art, please keep responses on topic. Politics ends threads.



On topic, titillation is perfectly possible without stupid art. Chainmail bikinis are stupid.

Jul 15, 2012 -- 10:15AM, sfdragon wrote:

Jul 15, 2012 -- 12:47AM, DoctorBadWolf wrote:

snipp
Dragon: I'd rather go the other way around, if forced to choose.

you talking to me here???

you'd rather have the class art??? the single arts??





its all meh though. I'd prefer a full page art of each race's sub groups, ethinc groups. though in humans it would hav et o be limited anyway.....

or have only two and have them covered from head to toe in armor that you can't tell where they came from until of course you get to the setting books and it shows off their ethnic groups of humans and all what not.

but really thats going to be no worst than havimng to sit through another   that company abc could/should ddo this becuase its the right thing to do discussion, which this is not one so anybody who reads this post, don't take it the wrong way.....





anime art in dnd????? ick I'll put my foot down and not buy it. If I want anime art, I know where to go find beyond anima...                

Yes, I'd rather have class art than race art if, for some reason, I had to choose between them.


And you feel about anime art as I feel about a book full of 1e style black and white art. I can play the system without taking up space on my shelves with books I won't enjoy looking through. I won't spend money on low production value black and white cheap books unless it's some super indie game without the funding needed to even print in color, and then it had better be a damned low price.

Jul 15, 2012 -- 10:11AM, jfriant wrote:

Jul 15, 2012 -- 9:14AM, DoctorNecrotic wrote:

Not to mention, many anime artists have crafted beautiful works of out that help to embody the fantastic (Miyazaki is a good example.)  Now, before you shout "Weeaboo Fightan Magic" at me, do a little research

I don't have to research what aesthetic I find appealing, because it's an opinion. If you like anime "style" (sorry for using the word "genre" - didn't realize it was going to incite such a fervent response), that's fine. I do not, nor would I like to see it in the D&D books. What I should have said, is I find anime to be a rather polarizing style: as in you like it or you don't. Because I personally do not like it, I would say I do not want to see it in the D&D books. It was meant as a comparison to the early discussion about the more exotic or high fantasy aspects of the game, that I also don't really care for but can occasionally find some of it that I enjoy and thus would still like to see it included.

I'm not saying anime sucks and I'm not saying if it's in the books I would flat out refuse to buy them (particularly if it's not entirely anime style) all I said was because I find it to be polarizing, I personally would not like to see it included. Savvy?

Loud and clear now.  I sometimes misread into things...  Didn't mean to sound defensive there.  After rereading, I feel quite stupid now.  Everyone has their own aesthetic and perhaps such a jump in art style would be best in a supplement.  I can also agree on the conflict between the standard fantasy to the the uber-exotic in art and seemingly out of place weird concepts.

Jul 15, 2012 -- 10:23AM, DoctorBadWolf wrote:

On topic, titillation is perfectly possible without stupid art. Chainmail bikinis are stupid.

Chainmail bikinis aren't stupid, they're just eminently impractical as armor.  However, why not include it?  Fantasy covers the gamut of styles, after-all.  So long as they balance the chainmail/scalemail-bikini clad women with 300 style or loincloth-clad male warriors, I see it as just an example of what's thematically possible.

Spoiler: Show

The above picture was in a Dragon's Eye View article called Appropriate Armor.  Personally, I'd love to see this for every piece of armor in the books.  That is to say, I'd like the page depicting armor art in the PHB to present us with three images per armor, one in each of these styles.  That way, we are free to make up our own minds about what style we prefer to see in our games.

Jul 15, 2012 -- 10:23AM, DoctorBadWolf wrote:

Zerro is right. This is a thread about art, please keep responses on topic. Politics ends threads.

You are both wrong, there was nothing actually political in any of the posts so far, look for an argument elsewhere.

okay Doctorbadwolf



but the latter suggestion was more or less to combine them but that is if ofcourse wotc liked the idea. save the singles for class feture showings.... like som old guy casting a fireball...

or some halfling showing off his pick pocket abilties...

or some one on horseback....





ummm another question.
Should wotc like the idea but instead of one or the other we get both, a full page  of showing off each races ethnic groups( IE moon elf and sun elf, etc) and the class art.

how big would you want the class art?? how 3.x did it?? how 4e did it???


example character art of each class would not have to be big and hold up half a page.



oh btw how does this peice I found on deviant art??

I suppose what I'm looking for is a practical and down to Earth type of aesthetic, something I can relate to on a level, so lower fantasy.  Or perhaps a middle fantasy, where the warriors can one day achieve feats not known to human kind, where if they're lucky they can smash a boulder with their fists (Hey, it happened in Resident Evil 5 ) or beat a god silly ("Puny god!")  Of course, these depictions would work best for illustrating the "epic legends and so can you" section.

Jul 15, 2012 -- 11:02AM, Steely_Dan wrote:

Jul 15, 2012 -- 10:23AM, DoctorBadWolf wrote:

Zerro is right. This is a thread about art, please keep responses on topic. Politics ends threads.

You are both wrong, there was nothing actually political in any of the posts so far, look for an argument elsewhere.

I dispute that. For example, BhaelFire said:

This is a FANTASY game...not a "politically correct, let's try not to offend people" game.

In other words I want to see more chainmail bikinis on buxom broads...and half-robed dudes with bloodied axes and furrowed brows.

That looks pretty political to me. It looks exactly like the kind of politics that got the 'What sort of female character art should we have?' thread closed. Terms like 'politically correct' are (unsurprisingly) politically charged. Come to that, the sexist epithet 'broad' is pretty charged, too. Don't even pretend you don't know that.

If anyone wants to talk politics, I invite them to nominate a suitable platform elsewhere.

Z.

This thread is now drifting into the arena of the unwell, making an enemy of its own future.

Uh.  If you don't want to argue about politics it might help to *stop* arguing about politics!

Now, drifting back to topic, as mentioned before... landscape and atmosphere art always helps!  That's some of the stuff I LOVE!  I want to see what the rolling mountains, drifting deserts, icy tundras, blah blah blah look like in the D&D world!

Edit:  I want to dig up some examples!  One second...
Spoiler: Show

Jul 15, 2012 -- 12:11PM, Zerozobbb wrote:

 Terms like 'politically correct' are (unsurprisingly) politically charged. Come to that, the sexist epithet 'broad' is pretty charged, too. Don't even pretend you don't know that.

It was meant as a lighthearted (yet cheeky) remark made to convey the type of art I'd like to see — and was not intended to start a "political" debate. My sense of humor tends to come off as crass sometimes, for that I apologize.  

 

Jul 15, 2012 -- 1:31PM, BhaelFire wrote:

It was meant as a lighthearted (yet cheeky) remark made to convey the type of art I'd like to see — and was not intended to start a "political" debate. My sense of humor tends to come off as crass sometimes, for that I apologize. 
 

No worries. Apology accepted. I'm just a bit sore from the earlier threads on that subject, I guess. For what it's worth, I love seeing pretty people of all genders depicted in our art; I just don't make that the main point. And I'm really enjoying the vast majority of art people are posting to this thread.

Keep 'em coming!

Z.

Jul 15, 2012 -- 10:59AM, MechaPilot wrote:

Jul 15, 2012 -- 10:23AM, DoctorBadWolf wrote:

On topic, titillation is perfectly possible without stupid art. Chainmail bikinis are stupid.

Chainmail bikinis aren't stupid, they're just eminently impractical as armor.  However, why not include it?  Fantasy covers the gamut of styles, after-all.  So long as they balance the chainmail/scalemail-bikini clad women with 300 style or loincloth-clad male warriors, I see it as just an example of what's thematically possible.

Spoiler: Show

The above picture was in a Dragon's Eye View article called Appropriate Armor.  Personally, I'd love to see this for every piece of armor in the books.  That is to say, I'd like the page depicting armor art in the PHB to present us with three images per armor, one in each of these styles.  That way, we are free to make up our own minds about what style we prefer to see in our games.

I don`t think we need that many pictures, make the pictures in the equipment section somewhat realistic, then vary wildly everywhere else.

To make a chainmail bikini and the like viable, just stop calling it armor. It`s clothing, but made of metal. The character wears it because of personal taste.

The next step is to make it so that every character can survive (by "survive" I mean TANK) with any type of/without armor, maybe through feats or class features, so you can play your unarmored Fighter without dying horribly.

EDIT: But it gotta cost a bit, feats or whatever, since unarmored characters don`t spend money on armor.
EDIT2: Also, skimpy armors protect less than realistic ones, but are still strictly better than nothing, and are lighter. Maybe we should add some fluff advise on the books that tell you to consider a heavy-but-with-loads-of-cleavage armor to function mechanically as medium or light armor, same proficiences and all, since it`s pure refluff.

Jul 15, 2012 -- 1:52PM, XtheHunter wrote:

Jul 15, 2012 -- 10:59AM, MechaPilot wrote:

Jul 15, 2012 -- 10:23AM, DoctorBadWolf wrote:

On topic, titillation is perfectly possible without stupid art. Chainmail bikinis are stupid.

Chainmail bikinis aren't stupid, they're just eminently impractical as armor.  However, why not include it?  Fantasy covers the gamut of styles, after-all.  So long as they balance the chainmail/scalemail-bikini clad women with 300 style or loincloth-clad male warriors, I see it as just an example of what's thematically possible.

Spoiler: Show

The above picture was in a Dragon's Eye View article called Appropriate Armor.  Personally, I'd love to see this for every piece of armor in the books.  That is to say, I'd like the page depicting armor art in the PHB to present us with three images per armor, one in each of these styles.  That way, we are free to make up our own minds about what style we prefer to see in our games.

I don`t think we need that many pictures, make the pictures in the equipment section somewhat realistic, then vary wildly everywhere else.

No, we probably don't need that many.  I'd settle for just the realistic and the middle fantastic type; I watch enough anime and read enough manga, that I can do the anime/manga style myself.

Jul 15, 2012 -- 1:52PM, XtheHunter wrote:

To make a chainmail bikini and the like viable, just stop calling it armor. It`s clothing, but made of metal. The character wears it because of personal taste.

The next step is to make it so that every character can survive (by "survive" I mean TANK) with any type of/without armor, maybe through feats or class features, so you can play your unarmored Fighter without dying horribly.

EDIT: But it gotta cost a bit, feats or whatever, since unarmored characters don`t spend money on armor.
EDIT2: Also, skimpy armors protect less than realistic ones, but are still strictly better than nothing, and are lighter. Maybe we should add some fluff advise on the books that tell you to consider a heavy-but-with-loads-of-cleavage armor to function mechanically as medium or light armor, same proficiences and all, since it`s pure refluff.

I favor including it as a non-protective clothing item, but also the encouragement to reskin armor so that a CMB, or 300 style armor works like armor, and include all the same costs of normal armor, despite being real-world impractical.

Jul 15, 2012 -- 2:09PM, MechaPilot wrote:

Jul 15, 2012 -- 1:52PM, XtheHunter wrote:

Jul 15, 2012 -- 10:59AM, MechaPilot wrote:

The above picture was in a Dragon's Eye View article called Appropriate Armor.  Personally, I'd love to see this for every piece of armor in the books.  That is to say, I'd like the page depicting armor art in the PHB to present us with three images per armor, one in each of these styles.  That way, we are free to make up our own minds about what style we prefer to see in our games.

 

I don`t think we need that many pictures, make the pictures in the equipment section somewhat realistic, then vary wildly everywhere else.

 

No, we probably don't need that many.  I'd settle for just the realistic and the middle fantastic type; I watch enough anime and read enough manga, that I can do the anime/manga style myself.

What I meant was that we don`t need (IMO) that many styles of armor in the equipment section, as 3 pics for each armor would increase the total amount of pictures, wich would leave us pic-starved on other sections or just make the book cost more. I favor having loads and loads of styles everywhere else.

Jul 15, 2012 -- 2:09PM, MechaPilot wrote:

Jul 15, 2012 -- 1:52PM, XtheHunter wrote:

To make a chainmail bikini and the like viable, just stop calling it armor. It`s clothing, but made of metal. The character wears it because of personal taste.

The next step is to make it so that every character can survive (by "survive" I mean TANK) with any type of/without armor, maybe through feats or class features, so you can play your unarmored Fighter without dying horribly.

EDIT: But it gotta cost a bit, feats or whatever, since unarmored characters don`t spend money on armor.
EDIT2: Also, skimpy armors protect less than realistic ones, but are still strictly better than nothing, and are lighter. Maybe we should add some fluff advise on the books that tell you to consider a heavy-but-with-loads-of-cleavage armor to function mechanically as medium or light armor, same proficiences and all, since it`s pure refluff.

 

I favor including it as a non-protective clothing item, but also the encouragement to reskin armor so that a CMB, or 300 style armor works like armor, and include all the same costs of normal armor, despite being real-world impractical.

Well, your idea is good until you try to put the realistic guy and the 300 guy in the same world. Also, "I `wear` armor, get all bonuses and penalities for it, pay for it, but I don`t wear armor" can mess some people`s sense of immersion. The things I suggested here are meant to solve these kinds of problems.

Jul 15, 2012 -- 2:27PM, XtheHunter wrote:

Jul 15, 2012 -- 2:09PM, MechaPilot wrote:

Jul 15, 2012 -- 1:52PM, XtheHunter wrote:

To make a chainmail bikini and the like viable, just stop calling it armor. It`s clothing, but made of metal. The character wears it because of personal taste.

The next step is to make it so that every character can survive (by "survive" I mean TANK) with any type of/without armor, maybe through feats or class features, so you can play your unarmored Fighter without dying horribly.

EDIT: But it gotta cost a bit, feats or whatever, since unarmored characters don`t spend money on armor.
EDIT2: Also, skimpy armors protect less than realistic ones, but are still strictly better than nothing, and are lighter. Maybe we should add some fluff advise on the books that tell you to consider a heavy-but-with-loads-of-cleavage armor to function mechanically as medium or light armor, same proficiences and all, since it`s pure refluff.

 

I favor including it as a non-protective clothing item, but also the encouragement to reskin armor so that a CMB, or 300 style armor works like armor, and include all the same costs of normal armor, despite being real-world impractical.

Well, your idea is good until you try to put the realistic guy and the 300 guy in the same world. Also, "I `wear` armor, get all bonuses and penalities for it, pay for it, but I don`t wear armor" can mess some people`s sense if immersion. The things I suggested here are meant to solve these kinds of problems.

A lot of stuff that is technically optional enough to be mixed and matched is not going to work in the same world.  Example: There is nothing that stops a group with two fighters from having one with maneuvers and one without.  However, playstyle preference will lead some tables to flat out ban fighter maneuvers because they think they're spells for fighters.  The rules should be open enough to be inclusive of both, even if individual DMs/players and different playgroups aren't.

Also, the reason that I favor the reskinning option is because your option to treat skimpy version of heavy armor as light armor (which is a good idea) breaks down if a fighter wearing skimpy plate doesn't have a high Dex.

The other option that I favor is reskinning armor into defensive combat styles/techniques.  The cost for the armor becomes the cost for the training.  The speed modifier represents your loss of velocity for increased directional mobility (i.e. it's hard to run in a fighting stance).  And the armor's weight can be a reduction in your maximum carrying capacity required to maintain your increased directional mobility (it's hard to be nimble while carrying a lot of weight).

Jul 15, 2012 -- 2:48PM, MechaPilot wrote:

..."window.parent.tinyMCE.get('post_content').onLoad.dispatch();" contenteditable="true" />The other option that I favor is reskinning armor into defensive combat styles/techniques.  The cost for the armor becomes the cost for the training.  The speed modifier represents your loss of velocity for increased directional mobility (i.e. it's hard to run in a fighting stance).  And the armor's weight can be a reduction in your maximum carrying capacity required to maintain your increased directional mobility (it's hard to be nimble while carrying a lot of weight).

Beautiful.  This is exactly how it should work.

Jul 15, 2012 -- 2:48PM, MechaPilot wrote:

Jul 15, 2012 -- 2:27PM, XtheHunter wrote:

Jul 15, 2012 -- 2:09PM, MechaPilot wrote:

I favor including it as a non-protective clothing item, but also the encouragement to reskin armor so that a CMB, or 300 style armor works like armor, and include all the same costs of normal armor, despite being real-world impractical.

Well, your idea is good until you try to put the realistic guy and the 300 guy in the same world. Also, "I `wear` armor, get all bonuses and penalities for it, pay for it, but I don`t wear armor" can mess some people`s sense if immersion. The things I suggested here are meant to solve these kinds of problems.

A lot of stuff that is technically optional enough to be mixed and matched is not going to work in the same world.  Example: There is nothing that stops a group with two fighters from having one with maneuvers and one without.  However, playstyle preference will lead some tables to flat out ban fighter maneuvers because they think they're spells for fighters.  The rules should be open enough to be inclusive of both, even if individual DMs/players and different playgroups aren't.

Also, the reason that I favor the reskinning option is because your option to treat skimpy version of heavy armor as light armor (which is a good idea) breaks down if a fighter wearing skimpy plate doesn't have a high Dex.

The other option that I favor is reskinning armor into defensive combat styles/techniques.  The cost for the armor becomes the cost for the training.  The speed modifier represents your loss of velocity for increased directional mobility (i.e. it's hard to run in a fighting stance).  And the armor's weight can be a reduction in your maximum carrying capacity required to maintain your increased directional mobility (it's hard to be nimble while carrying a lot of weight).

I was thinking about feats like "unarmored agility", but your idea is even better for the DEX-less Fighter. You can even find some fluff reason why it doesn`t stack with DEX.

Really, for people that need mechanical benefits better than what their concept provides, feats or something else. For everyone else, refluff.

Say, if my character is optimised for medium armor, but I want plate because i looks baddass, I wear "skimpy plate" as medium armor or "even skimpier plate" if I`m better off with light armor. (Platemail Rogues!! Don`t say it`s noisy, metal clothing is only noisy if diffetent parts touch each other, a skimpy armor can be designed to avoid this effect.)

Or even "ultra skimpy plate/leather/whatever" if my character is better off unarmored.

All that can be done with pure refluff. However, if you want to look and feel like you`re not-quite-armored while still being able to tank... a light/medium/unarmored agility-ish feat will suffice, but it wouldn`t really feel like unarmored, so let me add an example:

Unarmored Heavy Defence (for unarmored guys who want to tank like heavy armor, or almost): adds +X to your AC, where X is 2 points below heavy armor, but a cut above medium, so you can tank quite well, but it doesn`t stack with DEX or any type of armor for fluff reasons and you still function mechanically almost like you were unarmored, being able to stealth and the like, wich is the tradeoff for being 2 points below.

With this you can have a platemail tank and a 300 tank on the same adventurer party. Isn`t that awesome?


@Salla: Hope you see where I`m going here, I don`t think refluff always does the job. Unarmored people shouldn`t have armor penalities, maybe some but not all of them.

However, let`s take this elsewhere since I`m derailing an art thread into a mechanics one.

Characters Show
Monsters Show
Environments Show
Scenes Show

Jul 15, 2012 -- 5:39PM, Tevish_Szat wrote:

Also, I think it's high time that the old "big gray beard, pointy hat" mages made their return against the youngbloods like 3e's Hennet we've been seeing so much.  Not that there isn't a place for younger mages, of course.  

Heh, yet your FEMALE Wizard is a “youngblood” - sexism.

Male “gray beards” come with female “crones”.

It is important to make males and females equally physically attractive in about the same frequency.

Personally, I dont identify with the gray beard archetype. All of my Wizards have a shave and haircut. Like most Fighters do.

Tevish_Szat, that adventureing party one is what I'd like to see as racial section art.

I think some great references are names like FRANK FRAZETTA, JEFF EASLEY and BROM. Those guys are a strong foundation for fantasy art today that are not going to be out dated anytime soon. They know all about color, atmosphere, appeal. I would specially think about BROM, he is currently working. If I was the art director for 5E I would bring BROM as the lead artist.  did you read it John Schindehette?

I took the time to select some images from this artists and others to share with you guys,

CLICK BELLOW TO SEE SOME AMAZING ART

Spoiler: Show

Jul 15, 2012 -- 11:02AM, Steely_Dan wrote:

Jul 15, 2012 -- 10:23AM, DoctorBadWolf wrote:

Zerro is right. This is a thread about art, please keep responses on topic. Politics ends threads.

You are both wrong, there was nothing actually political in any of the posts so far, look for an argument elsewhere.

Jul 15, 2012 -- 11:09AM, sfdragon wrote:

okay Doctorbadwolf



but the latter suggestion was more or less to combine them but that is if ofcourse wotc liked the idea. save the singles for class feture showings.... like som old guy casting a fireball...

or some halfling showing off his pick pocket abilties...

or some one on horseback....





ummm another question.
Should wotc like the idea but instead of one or the other we get both, a full page  of showing off each races ethnic groups( IE moon elf and sun elf, etc) and the class art.

how big would you want the class art?? how 3.x did it?? how 4e did it???


example character art of each class would not have to be big and hold up half a page.



oh btw how does this peice I found on deviant art??

I'd say class art can vary depending on the class, and what seems good for a given instance.

Jul 15, 2012 -- 12:11PM, Zerozobbb wrote:

If anyone wants to talk politics, I invite them to nominate a suitable platform elsewhere.

Z.

Thanks, Z.

You pretty much hit the nail on the head.

Jul 15, 2012 -- 12:40PM, DoctorNecrotic wrote:

Now, drifting back to topic, as mentioned before... landscape and atmosphere art always helps!  That's some of the stuff I LOVE!  I want to see what the rolling mountains, drifting deserts, icy tundras, blah blah blah look like in the D&D world!

Edit:  I want to dig up some examples!  One second...
Spoiler: Show

Legit. I prefer my vistas to feature characters as well, like in the second to last image. I think it gives a context that would otherwise be lacking. Cities, ships, etc work too.


Rupert: Honestly, you lost me when you said you don't want to see art like the race pics from PHB2.

IMO, those are the best images of Goliaths, Half-Orcs and Gnomes in the entirety of 4e, and much of 3/.5.

Also, while Brom's newer stuff is cool, I actually...really dislike his older stuff. Especially his dark sun stuff.

And yes, his Dark Sun stuff is outdated.

could we just have... more examples of art, please?
I mean, it is easy to just call some artist's name and say "I like his/her stuff", but there are many others who don't even know the name, less the art and even then might not know how well this or that artist can do different kinds of art. (I never knew Brom did anything "big" besides Dark Sun and I really disliked his DS art. But the Diablo characters are pretty awesome)

What I'd like to see is less "bold", "flashy" "in your face" (I don't know better words in how to describe the Frazetta/Reynolds/gritty style) art and more detailed, flowing and playful art (akin to Amano).

Examples:

Spoiler: Show

I know you won't find many action scenes in this kind of style, but... those artists can do great scenes of environment + character and character interaction. And though I think they *could* do action pretty fine, it is not what is usually depicted in this style (unless we talk Amano. But I guess he's off limits )

Continuing my trend of picking earlier art that I find evocative and would like to see emulated...

Spoiler: Show

Z.

Jul 15, 2012 -- 11:43PM, DoctorBadWolf wrote:

Rupert: Honestly, you lost me when you said you don't want to see art like the race pics from PHB2.

Really? what you like about it? To me they look like bad interpretations of real models doing boring poses. The bushes around the orcs look like baroque painting, but the orcs itself look photoshop. The perspective look weird. Interesting that you think those are the best, I would like to know what makes you like it.

Jul 15, 2012 -- 11:43PM, DoctorBadWolf wrote:

Also, while Brom's newer stuff is cool, I actually...really dislike his older stuff. Especially his dark sun stuff. And yes, his Dark Sun stuff is outdated.

Well, I can´t do anything to convince you to like or dislike Brom, I can´t change your personal taste. But its common sense that his art was one of the highlights of Darksun. Most people thought those where amazing back then.

Brom is not outdated as an artist, maybe you can identify elements in his darksun stuff that relates with the 90s, absolutely true, but his work is artistically solid and still works today. Pick a renascence artist like Rembrandt and you can say it´s outdated too, but it´s solid and still works as a piece of art. Those elements that make it remarkable survive over time, and make the personal brand of great artists. Obviously, if Brom was going to do stuff for D&D today it was not going to be the same as he did in the 90s.

@ Sephyrill, I´m not sure what you said is intended for me. when you say " could we just have... more examples of art, please?" I called the artists by their names and did show the examples bellow along with my commentary.

I put the names because it´s fair to identify an artist giving credit to him when you are talking about a piece of art. I am a professional artist myself, not in fantasy art but in other medium, and in my circles we talk about artists names all the time. Means no offense to you by saying their names.

I like the pieces you posted, they are beautifull and fluid. But there is a wide variety of styles in the pictures you showed and many of them are too oriental to fit D&D. No problem with oriental art at all, it could work for D&D as well, as long as the whole think where designed following the same trend. I´m not sure it would please the broader D&D audience though. The D&D arcade games done by capcom in the 90s used anime style illustration / animation that worked very well within the D&D universe. But the whole game had the same style. And it was, oh well capcom, just the kind of action/in your face type of stuff you don´t like.

@ MrChamp, this piece form Elmore depicts the essence of D&D play, it´s one of the best. I think his work evolved a lot thought his career, his late work is clearly better refined than his earlier stuff. I think he is retired at this moment, but his work should absolutely be a reference for current artists IMO. Even hire him as a consultant, what the hell!

@MechaPilot, Plane scape is definitely an example of a unique style that would work very well, either for campaign setting or for core books. I would like to See core books in Planescape Stile, no problem at all, as long as the whole thing follows the same trend.

Jul 16, 2012 -- 7:06AM, Rupert_ADnD wrote:

Jul 15, 2012 -- 11:43PM, DoctorBadWolf wrote:

Rupert: Honestly, you lost me when you said you don't want to see art like the race pics from PHB2.

Really? what you like about it? To me they look like bad interpretations of real models doing boring poses. The bushes around the orcs look like baroque painting, but the orcs itself look photoshop. The perspective look weird. Interesting that you think those are the best, I would like to know what makes you like it.


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I don't care at all about the background, for one thing. It's just there, it's not important. The characters are solid. The Goliaths look like people. Not like humans, but like people. Like one could interact with them. It's irrelevant to me whether characters in the art for a race writeup are posed, also. When I look through 4e images to try and find a character portrait for a goliath, half orc or gnome, the phb2 art is the first place I look. They aren't caricatures, for one thing. I despise most half orc art, because they tend to look ridiculous. Same thing with a lot of gnome art. Really, the goliaths, too. That quality, not looking like caricatures, is one of the most important.

To get more specific, I like the general art style. For the Goliaths, I like the colours, the lighting, the details of the characters themselves, the musculature. Their clothing/armor and weapons are practical and realistic, and well thought out.

With the half orcs, it's more a matter of how virulently I despise most half orc art, combined with the phb2 art being what I'd like to see more of, in terms of physical features, etc. The armor on the male is perfect, also. They're weapons, and a few other details are a bit odd, and I can't place what exactly is odd about them. It's like the shade pic from heroes of shadow, other than the weapons, that pic is fantastic, but dammit the weapons look shooped.

The gnomes are perfect. I won't even admit opinion on this one. :P That is what depictions of gnomes should be modeled after. They look badass, and the image is down to earth. Nothing ridiculous, just solid art of a cool race.

Jul 16, 2012 -- 12:29AM, Sephyrill wrote:

could we just have... more examples of art, please?
I mean, it is easy to just call some artist's name and say "I like his/her stuff", but there are many others who don't even know the name, less the art and even then might not know how well this or that artist can do different kinds of art. (I never knew Brom did anything "big" besides Dark Sun and I really disliked his DS art. But the Diablo characters are pretty awesome)

What I'd like to see is less "bold", "flashy" "in your face" (I don't know better words in how to describe the Frazetta/Reynolds/gritty style) art and more detailed, flowing and playful art (akin to Amano).

Examples:

Spoiler: Show

I know you won't find many action scenes in this kind of style, but... those artists can do great scenes of environment + character and character interaction. And though I think they *could* do action pretty fine, it is not what is usually depicted in this style (unless we talk Amano. But I guess he's off limits )

Definately would like to see some Amano style art in my DnD. \

*le sigh* ... I rescind my comment about this thread giving me renewed hope in the civility of the D&D Next threads.

What about cover art? We saw the 3rd/3.5 style that tried to make the books appear as old magic tomes (at least until the later supplements) - then with 4th we got the standardized title block at the top and the art underneath.

Personally, I like a plain cover, like the limited 3rd edition black base with silver text, or the 2nd edition supplements like Complete Book of Dwarves, etc that had the redish brown base with gold text.
Spoiler: Show
I know that will never fly for the generic release because it simply wouldn't grab enough attention or sell well.

That being said, I'm on the fence about what approach they should take with Next. Part of me hopes for the gem-eyed statue to make a return... part of me wants some entirely new piece of cover art... and part of me even wants to see a different attempt at the old magic tome style.

One thing I will fully support, however, is the cover of the Monster Manual being a Bullywug.

Jul 16, 2012 -- 11:32AM, jfriant wrote:

*le sigh* ... I rescind my comment about this thread giving me renewed hope in the civility of the D&D Next threads.

What about cover art? We saw the 3rd/3.5 style that tried to make the books appear as old magic tomes (at least until the later supplements) - then with 4th we got the standardized title block at the top and the art underneath.

Personally, I like a plain cover, like the limited 3rd edition black base with silver text, or the 2nd edition supplements like Complete Book of Dwarves, etc that had the redish brown base with gold text.
Spoiler: Show

I know that will never fly for the generic release because it simply wouldn't grab enough attention or sell well.

That being said, I'm on the fence about what approach they should take with Next. Part of me hopes for the gem-eyed statue to make a return... part of me wants some entirely new piece of cover art... and part of me even wants to see a different attempt at the old magic tome style.

One thing I will fully support, however, is the cover of the Monster Manual being a Bullywug.

Can it be a Bullywug that looks surprised, like "Heh? What you doin in my swamp?!"?

Cuz I'd vote yes for that.

Anyway, since I don't think they'd go with a nice black leather-esque with the Ampersand in the center in metallic blue, and the book's title on the binding...

I vote art. Don't care if it's old school, new, or in between, so long as it's high quality, evocative art. I could settle for the "magic tome" thing, but only if they manage to make it far less corny looking than it was in 3/.5.

I’ve removed content from this thread because trolling/baiting is a violation of the Code of Conduct.

You can review the Code of Conduct here: company.wizards.com/conduct

Please keep your posts polite, on-topic, and refrain from making personal attacks.You are welcome to disagree with one another but please do so respectfully and constructively.

Jul 16, 2012 -- 11:46AM, DoctorBadWolf wrote:

I vote art. Don't care if it's old school, new, or in between, so long as it's high quality, evocative art. I could settle for the "magic tome" thing, but only if they manage to make it far less corny looking than it was in 3/.5.

Yeah, the execution of the magic tome style in 3.5 was ... lacking. And I think in order to do it well, it would have be the plain style (such as the ampersand) that we all know is not going to fly. I like that suggestion by the way.

If they do go with actual art on the cover, I would prefer the cover be done in the 4E style (or 3.5 style of Heroes of ____ supplements), with the title block section a little more well defined... as opposed to the 3.5 Libris Mortis with its wrap around art that expands over the entire cover and the smallish title block just kind of pasted over top. Not that I dislike that cover. It just works better as a supplement design than the core book design, to me.

As far as what art fills in the rest? I would be open to that. Though I think having a dragon on at least one of the big three (assuming they're still going to do 3) manuals helps sell the brand.

Rupert, I didn't intend to address you with my statement. Calling one artist's name alognside his/her work is actually a good thing since it allows us to browse for more examples. What I meant was the ongoing discussion about artists without providing examples of what someone likes/doesn't like.

in order to add some art to the thread, here's some new Diablo Barbarian fanart I found this morning:
Spoiler: Show
some "bolder" style of art, yet it doesn't fall into the flashy, catchy section and provides us the scene of two battle-hardened veterans who watch over their territory in a snow-storm. Might as well be father and daughter.
In D&D, I would rather add some fur to their armors, but since we talk about Sanctuary's barbarian tribes here, they might have a supernatural resistance to cold as they are descendants of the Ancients.

Jul 17, 2012 -- 2:09AM, Sephyrill wrote:

Rupert, I didn't intend to address you with my statement. Calling one artist's name alognside his/her work is actually a good thing since it allows us to browse for more examples. What I meant was the ongoing discussion about artists without providing examples of what someone likes/doesn't like.

in order to add some art to the thread, here's some new Diablo Barbarian fanart I found this morning:
Spoiler: Show

some "bolder" style of art, yet it doesn't fall into the flashy, catchy section and provides us the scene of two battle-hardened veterans who watch over their territory in a snow-storm. Might as well be father and daughter.
In D&D, I would rather add some fur to their armors, but since we talk about Sanctuary's barbarian tribes here, they might have a supernatural resistance to cold as they are descendants of the Ancients.

Diablo 3 has a some really nice art. The barbarians and monks, especially.

Jul 16, 2012 -- 12:03PM, jfriant wrote:

Jul 16, 2012 -- 11:46AM, DoctorBadWolf wrote:

I vote art. Don't care if it's old school, new, or in between, so long as it's high quality, evocative art. I could settle for the "magic tome" thing, but only if they manage to make it far less corny looking than it was in 3/.5.

Yeah, the execution of the magic tome style in 3.5 was ... lacking. And I think in order to do it well, it would have be the plain style (such as the ampersand) that we all know is not going to fly. I like that suggestion by the way.

If they do go with actual art on the cover, I would prefer the cover be done in the 4E style (or 3.5 style of Heroes of ____ supplements), with the title block section a little more well defined... as opposed to the 3.5 Libris Mortis with its wrap around art that expands over the entire cover and the smallish title block just kind of pasted over top. Not that I dislike that cover. It just works better as a supplement design than the core book design, to me.

As far as what art fills in the rest? I would be open to that. Though I think having a dragon on at least one of the big three (assuming they're still going to do 3) manuals helps sell the brand.

Thanks. I'd like to see at least a collectors edition designed like that. On all points, we agree.

For cover art involving a dragon, I like something with either a lone warrior or a party fighting a dragon. Something that shows the scale of the thing, and the heroism of the people fighting it.

Thank you.  Beautiful examples.

I also want the art to be D&D art.  I want to see the game in the image.  Even if the image inspires the content. 

I would also like to see more multinationalism in D&D.  I am okay with D&D moving beyond medival europe and not just as planar settings or based on monstrous mythos.  This includes demihumans of different races.  The tavern has monstrous races but no adventurers with asian features?  I never understood this.

Jul 16, 2012 -- 11:46AM, DoctorBadWolf wrote:

Jul 16, 2012 -- 11:32AM, jfriant wrote:

*le sigh* ... I rescind my comment about this thread giving me renewed hope in the civility of the D&D Next threads.

What about cover art? We saw the 3rd/3.5 style that tried to make the books appear as old magic tomes (at least until the later supplements) - then with 4th we got the standardized title block at the top and the art underneath.

Personally, I like a plain cover, like the limited 3rd edition black base with silver text, or the 2nd edition supplements like Complete Book of Dwarves, etc that had the redish brown base with gold text.
Spoiler: Show

I know that will never fly for the generic release because it simply wouldn't grab enough attention or sell well.

That being said, I'm on the fence about what approach they should take with Next. Part of me hopes for the gem-eyed statue to make a return... part of me wants some entirely new piece of cover art... and part of me even wants to see a different attempt at the old magic tome style.

One thing I will fully support, however, is the cover of the Monster Manual being a Bullywug.

Can it be a Bullywug that looks surprised, like "Heh? What you doin in my swamp?!"?

Cuz I'd vote yes for that.

Anyway, since I don't think they'd go with a nice black leather-esque with the Ampersand in the center in metallic blue, and the book's title on the binding...

I vote art. Don't care if it's old school, new, or in between, so long as it's high quality, evocative art. I could settle for the "magic tome" thing, but only if they manage to make it far less corny looking than it was in 3/.5.

I agree. Ixnay on the ornycay. Something more gritty. As far from the D&D movie look as possible. The dwarf with the bad hair and the foam axe looked like a GWAR reject.

Jul 17, 2012 -- 11:32AM, Jim11735 wrote:

Thank you.  Beautiful examples.

I also want the art to be D&D art.  I want to see the game in the image.  Even if the image inspires the content. 

I would also like to see more multinationalism in D&D.  I am okay with D&D moving beyond medival europe and not just as planar settings or based on monstrous mythos.  This includes demihumans of different races.  The tavern has monstrous races but no adventurers with asian features?  I never understood this.

Seriously. I want the occasional Asain/Middle Eastern and/or African character in games that are actually about the RL medieval Europe, much less a game that is kind of loosely based on a fantastic version of it.

Jul 17, 2012 -- 11:32AM, Jim11735 wrote:

Thank you.  Beautiful examples.
 The tavern has monstrous races but no adventurers with asian features?  I never understood this.

4E art direction was very concerned with this aspect, if not dominant, you see lots of non-Caucasian characters depicted in the illustrations.

You know what I think would be nice to see, though maybe not practical from the size of the book aspect?

In the Monster Manual / Monstrous Compendium / Beastiary / whatever - aside from the typical picture of the individual monster (which I believe is still necessary for all monsters contained within) would be additional images depicting how those monsters interact with a) the party, b) the world around them, or c) even other monsters.

I know some of the pictures already do this to a degree to give them a sense of scale. And I like the simple ones being included in the entry area where the statblock and descriptios are. Remorhaz 3.5 Show

But it would be a bonus for me if at the end of an entry, or even a section in the back of the book contained larger, more detailed pictures as I mentioned. It wouldn't have to be many of them, only a few monsters - maybe key on the iconic ones (dragon, goblin, beholder, frost giant, owlbear?)

Remorhaz Detailed Show

Elves vs. Goblins Show

Frost Giant with Winter Wolves and Snow Goblins Show

Personally, everything in 4e looked magical.  The fighter swinging his sword, the creatures, the traps, they all had a magical hue about them.  Although a lot of it was beautiful, I would like to see a little less of it.  If that's the definition of gritty, then I'm all for it.

Also, looking through all the D&D artwork for 4e, I saw very few landscapes depicted.  I think this could be expanded upon.  And, I again would like to stress the importance of non-magical settings.  So many that I looked through were floating cities, glowing castles, etc.  I think a setting can be made dark or fantastical without the need of such obvious depictions.

Lastly, I would like to touch on something that I feel is lacking considerably - characters in movement that depicts a specific skill, attack, etc.  The characters depicted in 4e are so beautiful, so detailed, and have exquisite features.  But, where is the wizard casting Doom of the Blazing Void?  Where is the mage shooting magic missile?  I guess what I'm asking for is specificity.  It seems to me like it would be a nice touch.

I too would like to see more art in the MM.  Just random art that includes stuff from that MM.

These are just two quick examples of what I'm talking about.  The use of magic vs. the use of non-magic.  While I like the one on the left almost as much as the one on the right, I simply feel there was a bit too much of that "magic" style.

Hes a mage, hes a supposed to look magical.

Keep your mundanes as mundane as you want them.

But let the Wizards flash.     

for dnd to have asian styled characters, they would have to resupport Kara-tur.

the 4e Forgotten Realms is mostly based off of countries of Europe with little influance from Kara-tur.( and Chult nolonger counts for much of anything and matizca is gone and the arabic one which I have ToT syndrome at the moment)

( 3.5 realms still had little kara-tur influance and had egypt and what ever Uther was designed from)



if wotc re did KAra-tur as its own campaign setting, I'd no problem seeing more art based off Asian themes.


as for in the phb well.......... well.... how to put it......well let see, I'd have to ask if the FR was to get support right off the back and ther is an asian style dude or dudette wielding nunchucks in the phb, would this cause confusion with players asking dms where this style of human ethnic  group come from in the realms, or greyhawk... or where ever... .and do think of it as the player being a newbie.     


but imo and its not accuarate, ther e is alot of asian themes and it could go in a book byitself....




all that, my favorite asain myth creastre is the Kitsune..... so I got no problem with other ethnic groups, but I can do without iconic class iamges and go for racial groups...                   

Jul 17, 2012 -- 1:22PM, sfdragon wrote:

for dnd to have asian styled characters, they would have to resupport Kara-tur.

the 4e Forgotten Realms is mostly based off of countries of Europe with little influance from Kara-tur.( and Chult nolonger counts for much of anything and matizca is gone and the arabic one which I have ToT syndrome at the moment)

( 3.5 realms still had little kara-tur influance and had egypt and what ever Uther was designed from)



if wotc re did KAra-tur as its own campaign setting, I'd no problem seeing more art based off Asian themes.


as for in the phb well.......... well.... how to put it......well let see, I'd have to ask if the FR was to get support right off the back and ther is an asian style dude or dudette wielding nunchucks in the phb, would this cause confusion with players asking dms where this style of human ethnic  group come from in the realms, or greyhawk... or where ever... .and do think of it as the player being a newbie.     


but imo and its not accuarate, ther e is alot of asian themes and it could go in a book byitself....




all that, my favorite asain myth creastre is the Kitsune..... so I got no problem with other ethnic groups, but I can do without iconic class iamges and go for racial groups...                   

I'm hoping for countless spirit creatures from various Asian folklore, preferably in a traditional style in that case.  Especially some of the creepier ones like the so-called Vampire-Tree (Jubokko) and a giant monster made of dead soldier skeletons (Gashadokuro).  As for the other Earthy realms settings like Al Qadim and Maztica, why not split them from the Realms and fluff 'em up with some neat art.  Again, influenced by traditional artwork to give it more atmosphere

vampire tree.......interesting..... wonder if there is a similiar creature in one of paizo's beastiaries.... I'll have to look later.

And someone tell me what the hell is up with me and carnivous plants..... I'll blame deviant art for now...



Maztica was removed from the realms already, alot of people didnt like it for some odd reason. I do agree to an extent, it didnt really belong in the realms imo, or it should have been better detailed and left behind smoke and mirrors. It does deserve its own settiong book.
Al-qaddim was shoehorned in iirc, I'd have no real problem if it was removed and replaced with something esle Arabic styled and I'd have no problem if it was left in either. but it too deserves its own book            

Kara-tur shares realmslore and while its a earthly style realm too, its far to late to remove it if it wasnt originally in the REalms from 1e and 2e. but like the others, it deserves a book too.


I'd love to see it done that way, I agree.

but it comes down to one reason and it stinks. Marketing, how to do it so that it sells.





on that note: ABeir should get its own book too...... unless it gets retconned as a terrible mistake that never should have been.... which it wont            

Jul 17, 2012 -- 1:54PM, sfdragon wrote:

vampire tree.......interesting..... wonder if there is a similiar creature in one of paizo's beastiaries.... I'll have to look later.

And someone tell me what the hell is up with me and carnivous plants..... I'll blame deviant art for now...



Maztica was removed from the realms already, alot of people didnt like it for some odd reason. I do agree to an extent, it didnt really belong in the realms imo, or it should have been better detailed and left behind smoke and mirrors. It does deserve its own settiong book.
Al-qaddim was shoehorned in iirc, I'd have no real problem if it was removed and replaced with something esle Arabic styled and I'd have no problem if it was left in either. but it too deserves its own book            

Kara-tur shares realmslore and while its a earthly style realm too, its far to late to remove it if it wasnt originally in the REalms from 1e and 2e. but like the others, it deserves a book too.


I'd love to see it done that way, I agree.

but it comes down to one reason and it stinks. Marketing, how to do it so that it sells.





on that note: ABeir should get its own book too...... unless it gets retconned as a terrible mistake that never should have been.... which it wont            

The Realms shoehorning was probably from a marketing standpoint.  Since Al Qadim, Kara Tur, and Maztica are well known now, they might do well as stand alone products, perhaps with tie-in articles on how they fit in what setting (especially if you want them back into the Realms)

Now, back to Yokai art, here's what I'm talking about.  Now, perhaps I can dig up some in the style of hell scrolls (Or, "See these things?  Do wrong and this WILL ruin your day!")

Spoiler: Show

(Also the vampire tree seems to be a modern invention, but it fits the D&D atmosphere)

Jul 17, 2012 -- 1:54PM, sfdragon wrote:

Maztica was removed from the realms already,

Wait what?!

How did they remove a -continent-?!  I mean, is there actually some story behind it or what?

Jul 17, 2012 -- 2:18PM, anjelika wrote:

Jul 17, 2012 -- 1:54PM, sfdragon wrote:

Maztica was removed from the realms already,

Wait what?!

How did they remove a -continent-?!  I mean, is there actually some story behind it or what?

Via cheap retcon plot device to shoehorn PoL/4e Core content in its place called "Returned Abeir".

Jul 17, 2012 -- 2:30PM, DoctorNecrotic wrote:

Jul 17, 2012 -- 2:18PM, anjelika wrote:

Jul 17, 2012 -- 1:54PM, sfdragon wrote:

Maztica was removed from the realms already,

Wait what?!

How did they remove a -continent-?!  I mean, is there actually some story behind it or what?

Via cheap retcon plot device to shoehorn PoL/4e Core content in its place called "Returned Abeir".

yep that is what they did.

personally I liked Maztica, but only as a hot jungle crawlling with who knows wat and no civilized ( well colonies from FR and ) to be found, just tribal humanoids, some canabals some not, some slavers, some not.


    

Jul 17, 2012 -- 1:22PM, sfdragon wrote:

for dnd to have asian styled characters, they would have to resupport Kara-tur.

Er, why? Why not just produce a game which is reflective of a more diverse and inclusive view of fantasy and history? Asian people and things don't come from Kara-Tur. They come from Asia.

but imo and its not accuarate, ther e is alot of asian themes and it could go in a book byitself...

If I bought a game that was not specifically about any real-world environment or era, and was sold as a game of high imagination and creativity, I'd be pretty pissed off if I was then told I had to buy an extra book in order to see rules for my own culture's history and legends.

Let's see a culturally integrated game, both in art and content. If I want to run a game based more closely on medival Europe (and the thought has crossed my mind), I can leave out the smaurai and katanas myself.

Z.

For kicks, I went back and looked at the art from three different 4th Edition books (Players Handbook 1, Martial Power 1, and Martial Power 2) and decided to "rate" my opinion of each image on a scale of: really like, like, neutral, dislike, and really dislike. Where neutral was either something I mostly liked minus some glaring detail or something that really just didn't speak to me one way or the other.

Between the three books, there were 200 pages that contained art images (things like the deity symbols and the weapons / equipment I grouped together per page rather than per individual drawing).

The results were a little surprising to me. I would have assumed they would be heavily skewed toward disfavor given my opinion of 4th Edition as a whole and my love of "low-fantasy" style artwork, but they actually turned out to be a nearly perfect Gaussian distribution.

Breakdown Show

I see that as a really good thing; to me that means variety of style and appeal but without going to the extremes often enough to be offensive. Now, obviously I'm a single datapoint and not representative of the entire D&D community by any means, but that's at least encouraging to me. Even when I have a preconceived notion that I dislike the bulk of the art, it turns out there was more variety and appeal than I originally assumed.

I'd like to see that kind of thing continue with the art in D&D Next. I don't have to love everything in it but I shouldn't hate everything in it, or even most of it... and variety is the best way to ensure that happens not just with myself but the D&D community as a whole.

As an example of the variety of style and presentation, there are two elven archer pictures in the PHB1; one is in my top 3 favorites from that book (Page 273) and the other is one of my least favorites of all time (Page 110). Sorry, couldn't find them to post them. 

Heh, add me to the vote for: Like high-fantasy and dislike low-fantasy.
 


The settings and the classes shoud determine whether the scene is high or low.

The settings are obvious.

Eberron (high tech) and Forgotten Realms (epic saga) are high magic and need to flaunt it.

Dark Sun and probably Greyhawk are low magic, and need to make magic subtle, haunting, and evocative. Lord of the Rings is closer to an example of low magic, with low-key magic items (like the potion of light, and the dagger and chain armor) with occasional surges of power (like the ring and the undead).

A no-magic setting is something different, lacking any mages or anything supernatural.


 
However, for a setting-neutral Core, it is the classes who determine high magic or low magic.

A group of mages - Wizard, Sun Cleric, and so on - are high magic and can glow, flash, and smolder.

A group of warriors - Fighter, Rogue, and so on - are low magic and keep it natural or grim.

Now, a group of gishes - Bard, War Cleric, and so on - or a mix of mages and warriors can be anywhere in between, often with subtle auras and blazing swords.

Jul 18, 2012 -- 1:43AM, Zerozobbb wrote:

Jul 17, 2012 -- 1:22PM, sfdragon wrote:

for dnd to have asian styled characters, they would have to resupport Kara-tur.

Er, why? Why not just produce a game which is reflective of a more diverse and inclusive view of fantasy and history? Asian people and things don't come from Kara-Tur. They come from Asia.

but imo and its not accuarate, ther e is alot of asian themes and it could go in a book byitself...

If I bought a game that was not specifically about any real-world environment or era, and was sold as a game of high imagination and creativity, I'd be pretty pissed off if I was then told I had to buy an extra book in order to see rules for my own culture's history and legends.

Let's see a culturally integrated game, both in art and content. If I want to run a game based more closely on medival Europe (and the thought has crossed my mind), I can leave out the smaurai and katanas myself.

Z.

you should reread that. I said Asian styled . the limited artwork i've seen on Kara-tur is Asian inspired, and I do mean limited.





4e was connected to a specific setting, although it bit loosely


3e was connected to the Greyhawk setting


I'm not sure on 2e and didnt care when 1e came into being.


for what you say to work, WOTC would have to do one thing, leave out the part of where each race hails from and leave that they live in trees and enchanted cities and not name names.Wotc would also have leave out each and every deity out og the phb/dmg and leave them speciffically to the campaign settings.
Then they could have asian themes in the 5e phb/dmg/mm.



HOWEVER I've asked for the 5e phb to be non attached to any setting before and all I got is players and DMs alike tellimg me that they did not want to go down that route becuase they didnt have the time anymore when creating their own worlds to go and create deities and what not and wanted generic stuff like the deities.


                 

bottom line is, we can want whatever we want.


what we get is another story all together ....

Jul 17, 2012 -- 1:22PM, sfdragon wrote:

for dnd to have asian styled characters, they would have to resupport Kara-tur.

the 4e Forgotten Realms is mostly based off of countries of Europe with little influance from Kara-tur.( and Chult nolonger counts for much of anything and matizca is gone and the arabic one which I have ToT syndrome at the moment)

( 3.5 realms still had little kara-tur influance and had egypt and what ever Uther was designed from)



if wotc re did KAra-tur as its own campaign setting, I'd no problem seeing more art based off Asian themes.


as for in the phb well.......... well.... how to put it......well let see, I'd have to ask if the FR was to get support right off the back and ther is an asian style dude or dudette wielding nunchucks in the phb, would this cause confusion with players asking dms where this style of human ethnic  group come from in the realms, or greyhawk... or where ever... .and do think of it as the player being a newbie.     


but imo and its not accuarate, ther e is alot of asian themes and it could go in a book byitself....




all that, my favorite asain myth creastre is the Kitsune..... so I got no problem with other ethnic groups, but I can do without iconic class iamges and go for racial groups...                   

There's a Shou nation in the 4e FR. Right in the middle of that map.

Also, the PHB having some asians, africans, etc would not confuse any new players. They would see them and think, "Ok, there's multiple cultures and ethnicities in this DnD thing."

Jul 17, 2012 -- 2:18PM, anjelika wrote:

Jul 17, 2012 -- 1:54PM, sfdragon wrote:

Maztica was removed from the realms already,

Wait what?!

How did they remove a -continent-?!  I mean, is there actually some story behind it or what?

There was a catyclism of sorts, with a metaphysical collision of worlds, and Maztica was shunted over to the other world, while a continent from that world took it's place in Toril.

It wasn't retcon or any of that. It was yet another Realms Shattering Event.



But let's keep this thread from becoming yet another FR argument thread, please.

Jul 18, 2012 -- 1:43AM, Zerozobbb wrote:

Jul 17, 2012 -- 1:22PM, sfdragon wrote:

for dnd to have asian styled characters, they would have to resupport Kara-tur.

Er, why? Why not just produce a game which is reflective of a more diverse and inclusive view of fantasy and history? Asian people and things don't come from Kara-Tur. They come from Asia.

but imo and its not accuarate, ther e is alot of asian themes and it could go in a book byitself...

If I bought a game that was not specifically about any real-world environment or era, and was sold as a game of high imagination and creativity, I'd be pretty pissed off if I was then told I had to buy an extra book in order to see rules for my own culture's history and legends.

Let's see a culturally integrated game, both in art and content. If I want to run a game based more closely on medival Europe (and the thought has crossed my mind), I can leave out the smaurai and katanas myself.

Z.

This. A million times.

Jul 18, 2012 -- 7:13AM, jfriant wrote:

For kicks, I went back and looked at the art from three different 4th Edition books (Players Handbook 1, Martial Power 1, and Martial Power 2) and decided to "rate" my opinion of each image on a scale of: really like, like, neutral, dislike, and really dislike. Where neutral was either something I mostly liked minus some glaring detail or something that really just didn't speak to me one way or the other.

 

Awesome. I'd like even more variety, some of the newer 4e art, perhaps, but it is pretty diverse even in the early books.

Anyway, I'd like to see some hand drawn looking stuff, too. Not a huge amount, but some stuff like this:
Spoiler: Show

Jul 19, 2012 -- 12:01PM, DoctorBadWolf wrote:

Awesome. I'd like even more variety, some of the newer 4e art, perhaps, but it is pretty diverse even in the early books.

Anyway, I'd like to see some hand drawn looking stuff, too. Not a huge amount, but some stuff like this:
Spoiler: Show

A couple examples of depicting other cultures, some Sikh warriors:


Would love to see some stuff like this.

The hand drawn example, not super big on, but the Sikh warriors and other cultures?  Yes please!  As posted earlier, I'd happily support other cultures influencing the fluff and art.

Yes, they are also in Westgate and other areas in the moonsea/dragon coast area.

it was all included in   "Little influence" part.


  

I popped into a local gaming shop last night on a whim, and was pleasantly surprised to see a ton of 2nd Edition Adventures / Settings books for sale ($3 each). I snatched up a few, mostly Forgotten Realms stuff like Moonsea, Dreams of the Red Wizards, etc.

Obviously those old books are filled with the black and white ink drawings, and they have a certain appeal, but one thing I'm noticing in them that I really like is the simple page-border art - particularly along the top of each page. Stuff that runs a wide variety of styles - celtic knots with medieval style animals, dwarven script, mystic arcane symbols cut into stone, etc. It's like every page has a meander.

While having page borders like that take up space for text and the actual details of the book, they do add a certain charm. At least a little more than the newer books, like 4E, that contain just the section and page numbers as bordering art on most pages... and those just look like something from a photoshop stockpile; uninspiring at best, distractingly cheap looking at worst.

Jul 19, 2012 -- 12:32PM, jfriant wrote:

I popped into a local gaming shop last night on a whim, and was pleasantly surprised to see a ton of 2nd Edition Adventures / Settings books for sale ($3 each). I snatched up a few, mostly Forgotten Realms stuff like Moonsea, Dreams of the Red Wizards, etc.

Obviously those old books are filled with the black and white ink drawings, and they have a certain appeal, but one thing I'm noticing in them that I really like is the simple page-border art - particularly along the top of each page. Stuff that runs a wide variety of styles - celtic knots with medieval style animals, dwarven script, mystic arcane symbols cut into stone, etc. It's like every page has a meander.

While having page borders like that take up space for text and the actual details of the book, they do add a certain charm. At least a little more than the newer books, like 4E, that contain just the section and page numbers as bordering art on most pages... and those just look like something from a photoshop stockpile; uninspiring at best, distractingly cheap looking at worst.

Ever checked out The One Ring by Cubicle 7?

Jul 19, 2012 -- 12:20PM, sfdragon wrote:

Yes, they are also in Westgate and other areas in the moonsea/dragon coast area.

it was all included in   "Little influence" part.


  

There's Kara  Tur elements right there in the main part of the setting. That's more than enough for asian influenced art, assuming (for some reason) they were to use FR as the default PHB setting.

Also, the PHB having some asians, africans, etc would not confuse any new players. They would see them and think, "Ok, there's multiple cultures and ethnicities in this DnD thing."

I agree with this completely.  Paizo has shown that races in their worldbook go over -extremely- well.  Now...how to move them to Core is a bit more difficult.  You can either hit 'stereotype' for each one's 'origin' (given the lack of a cohesive setting) like we do on elves, dwarves et al...or you can simply put up pictures of them and go on your way.  Neither way is particularly good, and their could yet be another way of doing it that I don't know.  But I'd hate to see the stereotype card thrown out because D&D was trying to be -in-clusive. 

Wait...art thread.  Duh.  Sorry, was still in 'mechanics' mode.  Yah, in art it absolutely should be shown as multi-racial.  I don't even see it as a question.

Paizo's InnerSea region of its Golarion also has in its doings every where in in there is a native ethnic group, and even sub ethnic groups|( IE the Tians) and where they can be found in their setting.

And I hope they dont use the FR as the defualt setting, that did not do that.



All the realms stated was Human...

that said, all I remember of the KAratur portions of the REalms was the Nine Golden Sword sindicate of Westgate.... or was it thesk.... meh the main not so nice group against the shadowlords, Teflamm.

and in 4e that Shou city state south of Westgate and that DDI article that was detailing some city north of it. and that was it.




that said do tell me, how do you want them to add asian themed character artwork to 5e??


Iconic singles for race and class( IE pathfinder, 3e dnd)

 ditch the icon class and just do a racial group shot( Ie for humans, several ethnic characters)"""""WArning, the realms has many ethnic groups""""""

ditch the icon race shots for a group of said class shot( Ie set of paladins, one of each race this might get off on sub races )
or just add more art at the cost of something else(whether its  removing art of another ethnic group, removing of  spell casting art, removing of rules, extra pages in book and cost to my wallet)


Regardless, if they do add it somehow, the racial ethnic group shot makes the most sense to me, and that is just me as its my oppinion and I'm wlecome to it. I have no problem if they do a monk shot that is asian styled, but I'd be annoyed if they used any other weapon other than the twin hook swords.....( love that weapon, just hate that I cant remember its name let alone how to spell it)    

thread needs more art...
Chris Quilliams' Conan Show
I like a lot of Chris Quilliams work; particularly his Conan stuff, but also his monster anatomies. 
www.epilogue.net/cgi/database/art/list.p...

I've also developed a fondness for Howard Lyon's work. His presentation of tieflings in particular.
Lyon Tieflings Show

Jul 20, 2012 -- 9:48AM, jfriant wrote:

thread needs more art...
Chris Quilliams' Conan Show

I like a lot of Chris Quilliams work; particularly his Conan stuff, but also his monster anatomies. 
www.epilogue.net/cgi/database/art/list.p...

I've also developed a fondness for Howard Lyon's work. His presentation of tieflings in particular.
Lyon Tieflings Show

I really dig the Conan art and Chris' other work!  GREAT FIND!

Now, as for Tieflings, here's how I prefer my Tieflings (a little more covert.  Easy to masquerade.  Not even their Pathfinder depiction works for me...)
Spoiler: Show

Anyway, as a proponent of Nightmare Fuel, I'm hoping Keith Thompson can jump on board on the art crew (Yeah, I'm dreaming)...  Though, the art I wanted to originally show might be a bit graphic.  No matter, you can find his stuff here!  www.keiththompsonart.com
Spoiler: Show
I don't have permission to preview these...  I'm only trying to promote Keith Thompson here :/

Jul 19, 2012 -- 5:54PM, anjelika wrote:

Also, the PHB having some asians, africans, etc would not confuse any new players. They would see them and think, "Ok, there's multiple cultures and ethnicities in this DnD thing."

I agree with this completely.  Paizo has shown that races in their worldbook go over -extremely- well.  Now...how to move them to Core is a bit more difficult.  You can either hit 'stereotype' for each one's 'origin' (given the lack of a cohesive setting) like we do on elves, dwarves et al...or you can simply put up pictures of them and go on your way.  Neither way is particularly good, and their could yet be another way of doing it that I don't know.  But I'd hate to see the stereotype card thrown out because D&D was trying to be -in-clusive. 

Wait...art thread.  Duh.  Sorry, was still in 'mechanics' mode.  Yah, in art it absolutely should be shown as multi-racial.  I don't even see it as a question.

I do like the idea of group shots, in a setting with some attempt at context, of each race, showing multiple cultures/ethnicities. Trade/port cities work well for that. That said, that could be a bit contrived, so I'd also be fine with just having diverse art in general, and the art for the racial write-up being whatever the best art submitted happens to depict, perhaps ask eachartist to send in more than one if possible, with different cultures/ethnicities represented.

Having iconics can help, as well, although I'd not go quite as far as pathfinder did with using the same iconics in every product, and I'd definately show characters other than the iconics.

Nathlan. It's kept intentionally a bit mysterious, like a lot of 4e realms stuff, but there's certainly enough there to make an asian inspired character from there.

Anyway, there's no real method they need to follow to include asian themed character art in Next. They can just do it. ie, some characters have asian facial features or cultural clothing/weapons, etc. No big deal.

Jul 20, 2012 -- 9:48AM, jfriant wrote:

thread needs more art...
Chris Quilliams' Conan Show

I like a lot of Chris Quilliams work; particularly his Conan stuff, but also his monster anatomies. 
www.epilogue.net/cgi/database/art/list.p...

I've also developed a fondness for Howard Lyon's work. His presentation of tieflings in particular.
Lyon Tieflings Show

While I don't really like that teifling piece as a whole, I like that take on them. Insofar as I like 4e teifling art. Those horns just annoy me to no end. See that other doctor's post for my take on tieflings, actually.

Quillian's got some great stuff.

I agree with this completely. Paizo has shown that races in their worldbook go over -extremely- well. Now...how to move them to Core is a bit more difficult. You can either hit 'stereotype' for each one's 'origin' (given the lack of a cohesive set