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Switch to Forum Live View The Mage: A Spell Point class with a twist
12 months ago  ::  Jul 13, 2012 - 9:01AM #11
Emerikol
Date Joined: Apr 23, 2009
Posts: 5,402
Things you guys might be missing.

It was my intent for 1st level spells to be nearly at will.  If you notice there are no minor spells.  So these low level spells even for a 1st level wizard are intended to be practically at will.

I never want high level spells to be a given.  I want even an 18th level wizard to figure a spell point is majorly at risk if he casts a ninth level spell.

All of that is intentional.  I also was thinking a 1 always fails as my preference.  As I want my Mages not casting utilities unless they have no other option.  

It is why the spell level is multiplied by 4.  It makes the curve work out.  It makes the lower spells become practically at-wills as intended and it keeps the at level spells close to encounter risk.  At higher levels the risk is higher even at level which is intended.  No Mage should cast these spells without thinking a spell point is at risk.

@lawrencehoy
You just made a perfectly linear system.  I think this is less than best at low and high levels and closer to right in the middle.  

@storyteller
I also thought about making utility magic having a higher minimum DC in general.  Then permit a bonus for doing the utility as a ritual instead.

@mithrus
I disagree that five is too high but it is nice to have a system where you can change one number to increase or decrease the way a class plays.  


Another idea I had was static DCs that rise with level of spell.  The number of spell points would go up gradually as the caster gained levels instead of the DCs.   So maybe the DC on a 9th level spell is 16.  The DC on a 1st is 1 or 2.  

I guess whatever I'm proposing I am seeking for a curve that maybe you guys disagree with.  Any thoughts on my idea of a curve so that lower levels are easy and higher levels are always hard?



 
Here is a great blog by themormegil that explains why we had an edition war.
narrativism vs simulationism
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4e is new coke
What core means and does not mean
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12 months ago  ::  Jul 13, 2012 - 9:26AM #12
wrecan
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  • Would you get an Ability mod to the spellcasting check? (I assume not.)
  • Does (dis)advantage apply to spellcasting checks? (I also assume not.)
  • If a natural "1" always fails, does a natural "20" always succeed (i.e., does a level 1 mage have a 5% chance to cast a 9th level spell without spending a spell point?)
  • If there any limit to the level of spell that might be cast?  (I.e., can a 1st level mage cast a 9th level spell if he's willing to spend the spell point?)  If not, what is the limit?  I recommend that a mage cannot even attempt to cast a spell unless his primary Ability score (probably Intellience) exceeds the unmodified DC by 4 or greater.
  • Because of the 4-point increments you use, even a small bonus to the spell check makes a big difference.  With a +3 bonus, a 1st level wizard can cast a 5th level spell 20% of the time.  Ninth level spells become available at 14th level.

Other things that might affect the check (you already mentioned components and implements) include taking damage or having your mobility hampered.

I'd probably give the Mage some basic at-wills like the wizard so he can cast soemthing without worrying about a 5% chance to lose a precious spell point.

It's an interesting idea to deal with the 5-minute workday.  I could see this mechanic also working with martial classes.  Let's call him the "Duelist".  The duelist can make a basic atack at will.  Anything trickier requires him to roll a die or loss an "opportunity point".  Maneuvers would have varying levels of complexity. 

In other words, this makes a good alternative to both spell slots (whether using 3e-wizard spell memorization or 3e-sorceror spontaneous casting) and AEDU for power recovery.

Technically there's no reason you couldn't have a Vancian martial character.  Vancian, AEDU, and your Spellcheck system are all just different mechanics for expending and recovering powers.



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12 months ago  ::  Jul 13, 2012 - 9:40AM #13
Emerikol
Date Joined: Apr 23, 2009
Posts: 5,402
@wrecan
I'm glad you liked it.  I am aiming for your best of page Smile

 
As for your questions (yours in bold)
Would you get an Ability mod to the spellcasting check?

I considered this and decided no.  I didn't want something so vital being so ability dependent.  Obviously it could be an option but I'd raise DCs if so.

Does (dis)advantage apply to spellcasting checks?

I hadn't though of this.  My first instinct was to say now because this is a power resource management thing.  But it might be an interesting twist if damage increased your DC.


If a natural "1" always fails, does a natural "20" always succeed (i.e., does a level 1 mage have a 5% chance to cast a 9th level spell?)

No.  I want a 1 to always fail because I want a Mage to fear using magic for trivial reasons.   I'd probably require a roll even for scrolls.  I also was limiting Mages to spells of half their level rounded up.  Meaning regardless of DC they can't cast a nine level spell at first level.

I considered an alternate rule where the minimum was the spell level itself.  This makes 9th level spells always have a minimum 45% chance of using a spell point.  A 5th level spell would have a 25% chance minimum.  If I did this though I might have to increase spell points.



 
Here is a great blog by themormegil that explains why we had an edition war.
narrativism vs simulationism
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4e is new coke
What core means and does not mean
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dissociative mechanics (same as my own metagame dissonance. A great article.)
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12 months ago  ::  Jul 13, 2012 - 9:46AM #14
lawrencehoy
Date Joined: Oct 11, 2009
Posts: 1,129
@Emerikol:
There is a slight curve to my proposal; as the initial chance of success at each spell level decreases by 5% with each additional level of spell the caster gains (the first value in each column for the DCs). Plus it allows for near auto success (At-Wills) as the caster becomes more experienced. Your curve implies that the caster gets no better at using magic, in general, as he gets more experienced in using it. I don't like the implications of that; it would be like the fighter not getting any better at attacking with weapons as he levels up (whether expressed as increases to attack rolls or damage rolls). I like the concept though, as a way to make spell casting more balanced.


@Wrecan:
  • I'm in favor of the two rulings (1=failure, 20=success) always being included or excluded as a set. 
  • Regardless of which system is used, a caster should not be able to cast a spell that he/she is incapable of knowing/learning (as a class feature based on experience level).
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12 months ago  ::  Jul 13, 2012 - 9:50AM #15
wrecan
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Jul 13, 2012 -- 9:40AM, Emerikol wrote:

I considered an alternate rule where the minimum was the spell level itself.



I think you're overcomplicating things but that's fine.

My biggest concern is that there's no limit to the level of a spell that a mage can cast if he's willing to lose a spell point.

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12 months ago  ::  Jul 13, 2012 - 9:54AM #16
lawrencehoy
Date Joined: Oct 11, 2009
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Jul 13, 2012 -- 9:40AM, Emerikol wrote:

I considered an alternate rule where the minimum was the spell level itself.  This makes 9th level spells always have a minimum 45% chance of using a spell point.  A 5th level spell would have a 25% chance minimum.  If I did this though I might have to increase spell points.


I'm confused. This alternative provides less chance of losing a spell point, so shouldn't there be fewer points available?

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12 months ago  ::  Jul 13, 2012 - 9:55AM #17
wrecan
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Jul 13, 2012 -- 9:46AM, lawrencehoy wrote:

Regardless of which system is used, a caster should not be able to cast a spell that he/she is incapable of knowing/learning (as a class feature based on experience level).



In the spirit of Emerikol's proposal, I'd like the rules of knowing/learning to be tied to the DC equation he set forth.  Here's the DC chart for unmodified DCs:

Spell Check DCs
  Spell Level
Character Level 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
1 3 7 11 15 19 23 27 31 35
2 2 6 10 14 18 22 26 30 34
3 1 5 9 13 17 21 25 29 33
4 0 4 8 12 16 20 24 28 32
5 -1 3 7 11 15 19 23 27 31
6 -2 2 6 10 14 18 22 26 30
7 -3 1 5 9 13 17 21 25 29
8 -4 0 4 8 12 16 20 24 28
9 -5 -1 3 7 11 15 19 23 27
10 -6 -2 2 6 10 14 18 22 26
11 -7 -3 1 5 9 13 17 21 25
12 -8 -4 0 4 8 12 16 20 24
13 -9 -5 -1 3 7 11 15 19 23
14 -10 -6 -2 2 6 10 14 18 22
15 -11 -7 -3 1 5 9 13 17 21
16 -12 -8 -4 0 4 8 12 16 20
17 -13 -9 -5 -1 3 7 11 15 19
18 -14 -10 -6 -2 2 6 10 14 18
19 -15 -11 -7 -3 1 5 9 13 17
20 -16 -12 -8 -4 0 4 8 12 16
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12 months ago  ::  Jul 13, 2012 - 10:04AM #18
wrecan
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If we go with my proposal...

A mage cannot cast a spell unless his primary Ability score exceeds the unmodified DC for casting the spell by 4 or more points.

Assuming 20 as the highest priamry Ability Score a character will begin with, the highest spell level a mage could cast would be:

1st-3rd: 4th level spells
4th-7th: 5th level spells
8th-11th: 6th level spells
12th-15th: 7th level spells
16th-19th: 8th level spells
20th and up: 9th level spells

I actually think this may be too high at low levels and too low at high levels.  The high level issue may be handled if ability scores do increase slowly as has been implied.  If you get a new Ability point at 6th, 12th and 18th level, then the chart becomes...

1st-3rd: 4th level spells
4th-6th: 5th level spells
7th-10th: 6th level spells
11th-13th: 7th level spells
14th-17th: 8th level spells
18th and up: 9th level spells

And that looks pretty good.  I just think 4th level spells are too high for 1st level characters.

Maybe a better proposal is...

At 1st level, you can cast 1st level spells.  After that, you gain the ability to cast a new spell level every odd-numbered character level

Which is the traditional rule.

Then the DC chart is...

Spell Check DCs
  Spell Level
Character Level 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
1 3                
2 2                
3 1 5              
4 0 4              
5 -1 3 7            
6 -2 2 6            
7 -3 1 5 9          
8 -4 0 4 8          
9 -5 -1 3 7 11        
10 -6 -2 2 6 10        
11 -7 -3 1 5 9 13      
12 -8 -4 0 4 8 12      
13 -9 -5 -1 3 7 11 15    
14 -10 -6 -2 2 6 10 14    
15 -11 -7 -3 1 5 9 13 17  
16 -12 -8 -4 0 4 8 12 16  
17 -13 -9 -5 -1 3 7 11 15 19
18 -14 -10 -6 -2 2 6 10 14 18
19 -15 -11 -7 -3 1 5 9 13 17
20 -16 -12 -8 -4 0 4 8 12 16
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12 months ago  ::  Jul 13, 2012 - 10:10AM #19
Emerikol
Date Joined: Apr 23, 2009
Posts: 5,402
@wrecan
Thanks for the chart.   Having the DCs be included as the baseline for knowing a spell makes it harder.

My original proposal was based upon a max number of spells known being your int and you only get to learn one automatically when you got access to a new level of spell.  The rest had to be found.  Generous DMs could make it really easy to find spells and Stingier ones could be tougher.  This is a handy DM throttle for power.

A table could be provided to the caster that looked something like this for purposes of minimums.  I always want casting a spell to be a resource decision.

Spell Check DCs
  Spell Level
Character Level 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
1 3 7 11 15 19 23 27 31 35
2 2 6 10 14 18 22 26 30 34
3 1 5 9 13 17 21 25 29 33
4 1 4 8 12 16 20 24 28 32
5 1 3 7 11 15 19 23 27 31
6 1 2 6 10 14 18 22 26 30
7 1 2 5 9 13 17 21 25 29
8 1 2 4 8 12 16 20 24 28
9 1 2 3 7 11 15 19 23 27
10 1 2 3 6 10 14 18 22 26
11 1 2 3 5 9 13 17 21 25
12 1 2 3 4 8 12 16 20 24
13 1 2 3 4 7 11 15 19 23
14 1 2 3 4 6 10 14 18 22
15 1 2 3 4 5 9 13 17 21
16 1 2 3 4 5 8 12 16 20
17 1 2 3 4 5 7 11 15 19
18 1 2 3 4 5 6 10 14 18
19 1 2 3 4 5 6 9 13 17
20 1 2 3 4 5 6 8 12 16

 
Here is a great blog by themormegil that explains why we had an edition war.
narrativism vs simulationism
A great blog on the business side of 4e and its impact on WOTC
4e is new coke
What core means and does not mean
HoBby Award Winner
metagame dissonance (plot coupon)    
dissociative mechanics (same as my own metagame dissonance. A great article.)
The Five Minute Workday Fallacy
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12 months ago  ::  Jul 13, 2012 - 10:13AM #20
Emerikol
Date Joined: Apr 23, 2009
Posts: 5,402
@wrecan
Just saw your latest proposal.  It is interesting as an option.  It does give Mages though fourth level spells at first level.  Even given that it uses up a spell point I imagine the strategy would be to use those high level boom spells.

 
Here is a great blog by themormegil that explains why we had an edition war.
narrativism vs simulationism
A great blog on the business side of 4e and its impact on WOTC
4e is new coke
What core means and does not mean
HoBby Award Winner
metagame dissonance (plot coupon)    
dissociative mechanics (same as my own metagame dissonance. A great article.)
The Five Minute Workday Fallacy
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