There is an issue of books like this Tome and the Psionics books of there ussually only being one player that owns it or wants it, while the other players don't have reasonable access to it, or worse the DM doesn't have it or have reasonable enough access to it.
It is not a matter of if something is balanced or not, it is a matter of either it being open to all players, and having all the players and the DM being familiar with the rules. Several bad scenerios play out otherwise. such as:
-A powergamer/optimizer has the book, and creates a kick ass PC, which is not bad in of itself, but the rest of the party consisting of a mediocre ranger and a subpar paladin etc, who only get to flip through the book for 5 minutes before the start of the game session, if they are lucky enough that the player with it brings it along. They don't know the rules, haven't studdied them enough to actually take advantage of them. This creates an unbalance between awesome and poor that is hard to balance for a DM, and is only cured by all the players having full and propper access.
-The DM doesn't understand the rules and the player takes full advantage of this to bend them and abuse themm, he has a character that does the impossible with feats that the DM has to "take his word for" This is particularly true of the psionic book, which is balanced only if the PC isn't cheating like crazy, while the DM doesn't know how to counter abilities, or what to roll against them.
The final issue is that these abilities, again perfectly balanced, throw the DM for a complete loop if he doesn't know them. Encounters are smashed to pieces by powers that the DM didn't expect because he doesn't know these rules, resulting in "You do what now?".
What should a player do to get a book accepted? First he should give the DM access to it, highlighting the classes, abilities and feats etc that they are particularly interested in. This allows the DM to know and understand the rules for these and thus be able to have them in his game, the second is to ensure tht everyone has access to the book so that you don't get an optimized Warblade with a subpar Fighter in the same group
I may not have stated it enough before but MrCustomer really hits why certain things will get banned even if they are "good and balanced." I believe that few of us have trouble using many of the feats, spells, and items from any book because we are all familiar with those things but when new/different game mechanics get brought in it becomes an entirely new story. I know that any time someone suggests some new "uber" build I tell them they need to run it by the DM/GM and POINT OUT THE POWERFUL/BROKEN PARTS of the build; I add that last part because I know it is possible to throw something in front of a DM who, in a rush to get things done, may not see the little "tricks" you're going to abuse and/or stack together for power. Personally, I think one of the WORST things you can ever hear a DM say (or have them think even if they don't say it) is "I never realized you could do that."
Not sure when you continue making posts that go "Warblade better than fighter." when nobody is contesting that or agreeing that being better than the fighter = problematic.
Even with Warblades around, there are still many builds I'd rather have a few levels of Fighter for. So what if the Warblade, as a whole, is better than the Fighter? If you don't want to optimize the hell out of your build, you shouldn't be stuck with the **** fighter just because the warblade is being banned from the table for being better than said **** fighter.
Not sure when you continue making posts that go "Warblade better than fighter." when nobody is contesting that or agreeing that being better than the fighter = problematic.
Even with Warblades around, there are still many builds I'd rather have a few levels of Fighter for. So what if the Warblade, as a whole, is better than the Fighter? If you don't want to optimize the hell out of your build, you shouldn't be stuck with the **** fighter just because the warblade is being banned from the table for being better than said **** fighter.
Don't mistake me for saying that that I hate fighters. I built Lockdown as an example of how to make a good, contributing fighter.
But for generic all-around purposes, the Warblade beats it hands down. The fighter could triple the number of feats it gets and still only rival the flexibility and versatility of a warblade.
And your example of 'splashing levels of fighter' is the general consensus of all a fighter is good for in the long run. You should take 4 levels of fighter and then move on to something else. In short, you aren't taking the fighter class...you're trying to grab a few more feats early on. It sometimes seems as if PrC's were invented for no other reason then to give a great reason to NOT take fighter levels.
With the Warblade, you have really good reasons to take it all the way through, without resorting to niche builds that are hard to pull off without fighter levels.
And ask Tempest...there are very few Fighter builds you can't pull off as a Warblade, except those expressly reliant on Fighter levels (say, for instance, requiring Dungeoncrasher).
==Aelryinth
Fighter vs Warblade analysis http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19573526/Analyzing_the_Fighter_vs_The_Warblade
The Lockdown F/20 iconic build http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19856162/A_little_Lock_build_for_you
Fighter is a fine class IF you're just going to use a few levels of it. If you build a sandbox charcter fighter is a useful class but it is not a class you'd routinely take to 20 levels.
In all honesty fighter is actually a lot like Cleric, Sorcerer, and Wizard in that all of those classes are basically things you'd take as part of some much larger build. Now you can play one of those core casters all the way up to 20th-level and still be extremely powerful but that's just because of how spell power advances and in the case of Cleric and Wizard how easy it is to change. Just like you'll almost never see a Fighter 20 you're just as unlikely to see a Cleric, Sorcerer, or Wizard 20 because all of those classes work so well going into PrCs.
All those things you said are true, and I agree with you on them. I'm just not sure why you're acting as if what you're saying makes the Warblade OP. The Warblade is far better than the Fighter, yes, but the Fighter is so UP that nobody really pays any attention to that.
If they had just made the Warblade a "fighter revision" and called it Fighter 2.0 instead, would you have the same problems with it? Because that's pretty much how I see warblades: fighters improved to an actually enjoyable level.
I've speculated about it before, but what the standard fighter really needs is more high-level feat options. You've currently got a feat-intensive class, but an almost total lack of any high-requirement feats that can match what other classes receive.
Things like the Two-Weapon Fighting feats are one of the bigger feat stacks, and they actually provide diminishing returns. Weapon Supremacy is the right sort of design, though its requirements make it less than ideal. Currently, however, the fighter one works by achieving synergistic feat combinations, and the good ones are relatively few.
Not that a bunch of top-tier feats would make the fighter's fundamental design a good one, just a more functional one since it would actually have options.
The kraken stirs. And ten billion sushi dinners cry out for vengeance. - Good Omens
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Zauber's Mutable Rod: This rod has a number of useful functions that make it easier to live in the wilderness. It is made of polished wood, with five studlike buttons on one end. Each button produces a different effect when pressed. Unless otherwise noted, the rod’s functions have no limit on the number of times they can be employed. • When button 1 is pressed, one end of the rod produces a small flame, equivalent to a candle. • When button 2 is pressed, the rod unfolds into a two-person tent, complete with bedrolls and warm blankets. • When button 3 is pressed, the rod becomes a one-handed hammer, suitable for pounding pitons into a wall. • When button 4 is pressed, the rod becomes a sturdy iron spade. • When button 5 is pressed, the rod becomes a wooden bucket able to hold 2 gallons of liquid. Once per day, it can be commanded to fill with fresh water. If the rod is seriously damaged or broken in any of its alternate forms (button 2, 3, 4, or 5), it reverts to its basic rod form and cannot be activated for 24 hours. Moderate conjuration; CL 9th; Craft Rod, minor creation; Price 375 gp; Weight 2 lb.
the problem, Slagger, isn't really the high end feats. High end feats tend to be about damage, and Weapon Supremacy is a great high end feat. PF introduced crit feats...anyone can take 'em, but only fighters have the bonus feats to take lots of them.
The problem with Fighters is those damn feats keep getting burned on so much minor *(^(&*^ crap that doesn't scale, and tend to be half the power of a 'real' class ability.
No fighter should have to burn more then one feat on weapon spec. It should just scale. Instead, the whole tree (including imp critical) is SIX FEATS.
Argh.
And having to qualify for your own class abilities, unlike, say, THE MONK, is just plain wrong.
If fighter feats auto-scaled, no one would care about high end feats, because the feats themselves would all eventually be high end.
And that's on top of the whole versatility argument.
==Aelryinth
Fighter vs Warblade analysis http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19573526/Analyzing_the_Fighter_vs_The_Warblade
The Lockdown F/20 iconic build http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19856162/A_little_Lock_build_for_you
The problem with Fighters is those damn feats keep getting burned on so much minor *(^(&*^ crap that doesn't scale, and tend to be half the power of a 'real' class ability.
No fighter should have to burn more then one feat on weapon spec. It should just scale. Instead, the whole tree (including imp critical) is SIX FEATS.
Argh.
And having to qualify for your own class abilities, unlike, say, THE MONK, is just plain wrong.
See what I mean? Feats aren't a substitute for class abilities. Therefore, designing a class that has nothing but feats is bad design.
Incidentally, I agree with virtually every word of yours I just quoted. So many feats would make excellent fighter class features, but were rolled into feats instead. Likewise, so many of them require three or more feats to get that by the time the fighter is able to do his ONE signature trick, everyone else has FIFTEEN.
And that's beside the Tome arguments. I maintain that simply doing a 1:1 feat:maneuver comparison is missing the point, though.
If fighter feats auto-scaled, no one would care about high end feats, because the feats themselves would all eventually be high end.
The Tome of Battle figured this out: You can get Whirlwind Attack around the same time Mithral Tornado comes online (the former is slightly better with reach, the latter is faster but limited to 1/enc), but there's a lower-scale version of it (Steel Wind) and an upper-scale version (Adamantine Hurricane). And the prerequisites are adjusted because, honestly, that ability Just Isn't That Uber, particularly with the maneuver use limits.
(If you want MORE proof of BIJNTU, the "3.75" Saga Edition game - using WotC development, not Paizo - made Spring Attack better (you can use it melee or ranged) AND removed its prerequisites, and the game didn't snap open. Do that, and a third of the prereqs for Whirlwind just vanish.)
These are NOT all my creations! The lead authors are identified as follows: [TS] Tempest Stormwind, [AR] Andarious Rosethorn, [RT] Radical Taoist, [SN] Sionnis, [DH] DisposableHero_, [SH] Seishi.
[TS] The Pinball Brothers: Large And In Charge (Melee, Lockdown, Charge, Juggling) [TS] Ashardalon Reborn: I Will Swallow Your Soul (Melee, Fear, Negative Levels, AoE, Theme) [AR] "A"-Game Paladin: Play That Funky Music, Knight Boy! (Team Support, Melee, Theme, Single-Class) [RT] Uncanny Trapsmith: Get in, make it look like an accident, get out. (Skillmonkey, Stealth/Scout/Infiltration, Unorthodox Methods, Theme) [AR] Wizsassin: *Everything* is permitted. (Spellcaster, Support, Sneak Attack, Utility) [TS] Phantom Rush: General Gish Gouda. (Gish, Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Early-Entry PrC) [TS] Storm Knight: Another kind of gish. (Melee/"Gish", Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Unorthodox Methods) [TS] Inevitable Nightmare: The weapon you only have to fire once. (Melee, "Unorthodox" Methods (no charging), Reliability) [AR] Captain Constitution: The number one threat to America. (Melee, TOUGHTOUGHTOUGH, Defense, Theme) [AR] Nuker: I casts the spells that makes the peoples fall down! (Spellcaster, damage, blasting, damage) [TS] Dread Lord of the Dead: Let the Reaping Begin! (NPC-only, Variable (combat/casting/leadership), Iconic Villain, Theme) [AR] Heavy Crusader: No Rest. No Mercy. No Matter What. (Melee, Damage (No charging), Variable, Theme). [TS] Gun Fu: It's bullet time (Ranged, THEORETICAL, Twin weapons, Theme) [RT] Face First: We should talk. (Psionic, social, mind-control, info-management) [SN] Chaingun Porcupine: Never Enuff Dakka. (Ranged, Skirmishing, Spike Damage, Incarnum) [RT] Always On Edge: The Mortal Draw deals death. (Melee, Generalist, Dungeoneering, Stunt) [AR] Feral Druid: Real feral taste. Zero druid calories. (Melee, offense, damage, murder) [RT] Rusty!: Man's Best Friend (Sentry, Support, Backup, Rearguard) [RT] The T3 (Tashalatora Triple Threat): My Kung Fu is More Powerful (Hybrid, Flex-Function, Melee, Caster) [RT] The #1 Snoipah: Boom. 'Eadshot. (Caster, Theme, Spike, Trapscout) [AR] Dreamblade: Rest in Pieces. (Melee, Damage, Single-Class, Combo/Momentum) [AR] Evasion Tank: “When fighting angry blind men, is best to stay out of the way.” (Melee, Tank, Unorthodox Methods (attack negation), Theme) [DH] Psycarnum Warrior: ↑↑↓↓←→←→BA Start (Melee, Tank, Psionics, Incarnum, 1337 h4x) [AR] Heavy Weapons Elf: WHO TOUCHED MY BOW? (Ranged, Cohort, Damage, Unorthodox Methods (ranged ToB)) [RT] Gnowhere Gnome: A little man who wasn't there (Caster, Stealth, Single-Class, Elusive) [AR] Uberflank: I got your back. (Melee, support, stunt, teamwork) [TS] Flip the Bird: Everyday I'm shuffling (Ranged, harrier, unorthodox methods (ranged ToB / off-turn movement), support) [DH] Eat Sleep Gank: Real Ultimate Power (Stealth, Assassination, Spike, Magic Versatility) [AR] Slash and Burn: Mind, Body, Blade, Flame / Aspects of a greater whole / which delivers death. (Melee, Theme (flex-style), Damage, Stunt) [RT] Edge of the Light: Cut, Fade to Black (Melee, Defense/Offense, Momentum, Tactical) [RT] Quiet Murder: Cut throats, not corners. (Melee, Stealth, Harrier, Tactical) [TS] Wand Overdrive: Say Hello to my little friends. (Caster, support/artillery/variable, wand specialist) [RT] God Hand: What did the five fingers say to the face? (Melee/Gish, Unarmed, SAD, Theme) [AR] Zero Buff Time Gish: Try to keep up! (Gish, Speed, Movement, Opportunity) [TS] Robo Tackle: I Am Iron Man. (Melee, setting-specific (Eberron), positioning, theme, stunt)
the problem, Slagger, isn't really the high end feats. High end feats tend to be about damage, and Weapon Supremacy is a great high end feat. PF introduced crit feats...anyone can take 'em, but only fighters have the bonus feats to take lots of them.
The problem with Fighters is those damn feats keep getting burned on so much minor *(^(&*^ crap that doesn't scale, and tend to be half the power of a 'real' class ability.
That's kind of my point; feats are treated as if they're a viable class feature for the fighter, but there aren't any feats built to be functional at high levels. Requiring a bunch of crappy, minor feats as prerequisites is part of that lack of functionality.
The feats made available to the fighter aren't good enough to do the job, but there is no real reason that better feats couldn't have been made (either in terms of their direct effectiveness, scaling, versaility, or by having simpler prerequisites).
Incidentally, I agree with virtually every word of yours I just quoted. So many feats would make excellent fighter class features, but were rolled into feats instead. Likewise, so many of them require three or more feats to get that by the time the fighter is able to do his ONE signature trick, everyone else has FIFTEEN.
I, essentially, do also agree with what Aelryinth is saying; I'm just making a different point about it.
What I'm saying is that iffighters had been given feat support in the same way that wizards were given spell support, they could have been more competitive on the tier system. It's not necessarily the best kind of design, but it could have worked even within the original framework laid down in the PHB.
The kraken stirs. And ten billion sushi dinners cry out for vengeance. - Good Omens
= My most popular campaign item; for all your adventuring convenience.Show
Zauber's Mutable Rod: This rod has a number of useful functions that make it easier to live in the wilderness. It is made of polished wood, with five studlike buttons on one end. Each button produces a different effect when pressed. Unless otherwise noted, the rod’s functions have no limit on the number of times they can be employed. • When button 1 is pressed, one end of the rod produces a small flame, equivalent to a candle. • When button 2 is pressed, the rod unfolds into a two-person tent, complete with bedrolls and warm blankets. • When button 3 is pressed, the rod becomes a one-handed hammer, suitable for pounding pitons into a wall. • When button 4 is pressed, the rod becomes a sturdy iron spade. • When button 5 is pressed, the rod becomes a wooden bucket able to hold 2 gallons of liquid. Once per day, it can be commanded to fill with fresh water. If the rod is seriously damaged or broken in any of its alternate forms (button 2, 3, 4, or 5), it reverts to its basic rod form and cannot be activated for 24 hours. Moderate conjuration; CL 9th; Craft Rod, minor creation; Price 375 gp; Weight 2 lb.
