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Dungeons & Dra.. What's a DM to Do? How do you guys deal with lethality in your games?
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12 months ago  ::  Jun 26, 2012 - 8:29PM #11
Salla
Date Joined: Apr 3, 2003
Posts: 23,524

Jun 26, 2012 -- 11:19AM, iserith wrote:

I let the player decide if his or her character dies or not. This way they can choose to go out in style.

I don't really care for Raise Dead or the like. I allow it, but I view it as a "fix" to one of D&D's fundamental flaws. Definitely not my fav.




More or less how I do it.  I altered the rules for death and dying to make dying far less common; you can pretty much only die by being reduced to negative bloodied, or by just telling me 'I want my PC to die'.   However, PCs do not come back from the dead without it being a MAJOR quest.  Raise Dead does not exist, nor do Epic Levels in general (because it seems like every Destiny has a 'once a day when you die' power).

Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
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12 months ago  ::  Jun 27, 2012 - 8:53AM #12
Janx_14
Date Joined: Sep 19, 2007
Posts: 3,449
I support quest-based ressurection. It gives death meaning without it being permament.


The Raise Dead ritual's been used 3 times in my campaign. While the first one was kinda fun to go finding a temple and such, the others just seemed to be meh "we go to the temple again". It also creates the "why not use this on important NPCs!" issue. 


After the third we discussed alternatives, and the players agreed that quest-basd ressurection seemed better.  
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12 months ago  ::  Jun 27, 2012 - 12:31PM #13
the_unmighty_e
Date Joined: Sep 19, 2006
Posts: 12
For me, it depends.  Honestly, on the direction, seriousness, and physical irl time we have with this campaign. 

In a general serious campaign, I usually have some means to ressurect a party member who's fallen.  Btw, ALL of the players I've played with over the years are INCREDIBLY attatched to their characters.  I've even had a few who have been brought to tears at the table. 

For examples:

I have a goddess specifically devoted to forgivness and healing.  The temple are usuallty willing to aid adventurers, even raise fallen allies; but usually by way of asking them to a task.  That, and the party is also generally responsible for providing the raw diamond materials.  This usually surfices for a long winded; time is not a factor campaign where I can let the players go and do whatever.

In more time sensitive cases, I usually include a healer with the party (the class, Healer), which significantly reduces chances of death. 

In a recent campaign I ran, the players had a Jumi Healer with them.  The Jumi are a race I stole from Legend of Mana (for those old school ps1 fans).  In their chest, is a massive gem, the crystalized essence of their soul.  In my world setting, a Jumi may shed a tear upon a fallen comrad, and revive them.  However, the Jumi takes 1/2 that character's HD in perminent CON damage; fracturing their core gem, that cannot be restored after 24 hours.  In this campaign, the softspoken Jumi Healer has had to revive two particuarlly close comrads once each, leaving him with a 6 CON.  The role play of the kind character hiding his pain (as he's literallty damaging his soul for his friends) in order to shrug off any worry is interesting.  One of the players has taken up a personal quest to find some way to restore his core, leading to interesting possible adventure hooks.  
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12 months ago  ::  Jun 27, 2012 - 3:11PM #14
Zhara
Date Joined: Nov 9, 2010
Posts: 194
Excluding pre-gen modules and the like, I normally avoid CDGing the party. Normally this usually helps in avoiding death.

Additionally, when one of my party members is about to take a whole ton of damage, I ask them what their negative bloodied value is, and I  try to fudge the numbers such that the player ends up close to, but not below neg bloodied. It works out most of the time, and can really help them feel at-risk without them actually losing their character or getting angry at me for being "that DM."

The only time I don't really do this is during big climactic battles with quest-ending or arc-ending bosses who are clearly powerful enough to kill a PC. In the rare event of a TPKo, I have the playeres coralled and looted, taken back to a nest to feed young critters, or other sundry caveats.
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12 months ago  ::  Jun 28, 2012 - 1:06AM #15
BOM_Pendragon
Date Joined: May 21, 2012
Posts: 26
I always try and get my players invested in their characters because I think it leads to much better roleplaying. That said, I feel much the same way as Gaius, that it's unfair to encourage that and then snuff out the player's investment in that character with a character death which, let's face it, could happen at any time due a series of unfortunate dice roles.

If I know that a character is low on HP I'll often fudge damage rolls to put them on about -4 or -5 which gives the rest of the party time to stabilise them. If they do "die" I rule that rather than just being dead, their wounds have become "mortal" meaning that even magical healing is not enough to stave off death but they are not dead just yet. This gives them a chance to have last words with the party which has lead to some fantastic roleplaying moments and I think gives the player some closure for their character rather than the rather abrupt ending of *roll* crit, big damage, dead. I've had player's who loved their characters talk about how awesome their deaths were because of this and compliment each other on their last words using this kind of system which was a new experience for me after going through a couple of fairly anti-climactic squishings as a player.

If the player decides they want to keep playing the character then I do have the ressurection option available but like many people here I dislike the revolving door afterlife mechanics of high level DnD so I have the option available but rather than , spell cast, *bing* guess who's back?! it's a very big roleplaying deal in my campaigns. The caster, any members of the party involved and the character being raised are all summoned to the presence of a number of appropriate arbiters, planar beings that will judge wether or not the natural order may be turned about based on the character's answers. The LG paladin will be summoned before a being of pure law, an avatar or messenger of his God and a being of pure good. The neutral evil wizard and his party will be summoned before an aspect or messenger of his God, a being of pure evil and a being of perfect balance. The character and their party must then plead their case to the arbiters and get them to agree to relinquish his soul. Often their agreement includes some kind of price, such as a quest or pilgrimage on the material plane.
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12 months ago  ::  Jun 28, 2012 - 4:49AM #16
gaiusbaltar
Date Joined: Sep 20, 2010
Posts: 331
Thanks, everyone, for you responses.  Your feedback has been terrific.  You've echoed a lot of my feelings going into this, but it's nice to have the validation and to hear the stories and ideas that you've all offered.

My players are definitely invested, and I think a sudden death in combat would be profoundly deflating for them and ultimately hurt the game.

But I do think that in my game, based on tone, it would be powerful to have a martyr in the party.  I think that I will talk to the group about this and see if someone will volunteer, then we can script it epically, like having them burned at the stake as a witch or beheaded for treason.  We could even give the other PCs a genuine chance, albeit a difficult one, to save him.  Could be a great hook, if done willingly and with a great narrative.

Here is the Limit Break mechanic I mentioned in the OP, if anyone's interested.  It allows for PCs to rebound when falling to 0hp with additional powers and defense bonuses.  It's cool because it asks the players to be prepared with a good story reason why they have these deep reserves, what motivates them to "go Super Saiyan."

4e and the Art of the Limit Break.
Part 2: Drive.
Sleeping with interns on Colonial 1
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12 months ago  ::  Jun 28, 2012 - 10:40AM #17
Tharc
Date Joined: Mar 29, 2012
Posts: 100
Ooh, I really like that idea...the system proposed is a bit more than I'd like to deal with (we have enough things as DMs to track during an encounter as it is)...but what about something like this....

If a character drops to negative HP and if they roll a 20 on their saving throw, they stand back up (free action), regain 50% health, are granted +2 to all defenses and +2 to all attacks until the end of the encounter, and regain the use of 1 expended encounter power...and it doesn't require the use of a healing surge...

The whole time I was reading that article, I was thinking of the scene in Princess Bride where Enigo Montoya is leaning there, dieing, bleeding out, feeling like he failed his father...he digs deep, stands up, and proclaims, 'My name is Enigo Montoya, you killed my father, prepare to DIE!'...classic. 
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12 months ago  ::  Jun 28, 2012 - 11:38AM #18
gaiusbaltar
Date Joined: Sep 20, 2010
Posts: 331
What I like about it is that it is clearly spelled out right away that this is a special kind of encounter.  If you ask the players to track their own "Drive" then they have more investment in it, and a big payoff when they activate it.  You also don't have to drop to 0hp to activate your limit break, but if you look at how you accumulate Drive it's clearly the easiest way to do it.

It also gives you the freedom to challenge the PCs a little more, since dropping at least one of them is assumed in the encounter design.

I think it'd be a little more rewarding than just having it happen in any encounter.  For standard encounters if someone gets dropped I'd probably just have them be captured, or if the party completes the encounter without them let them recover as normal afterwards.
Sleeping with interns on Colonial 1
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11 months ago  ::  Jul 04, 2012 - 9:32PM #19
Centauri
Date Joined: Jul 21, 2004
Posts: 9,678
My advice, of course, is to give the monsters goals other than the deaths of the characters, so that the players can lose without being killed, and can win without necessarily killing all the creatures. The players might even lose even if they do succeed in killing all the creatures.

I recommend setting up similar goals for the players, if possible. This is how you can arrive at having character death that is only ever meaningful. Give the characters a goal and when the seem to be on the verge of losing that goal, propose that they could snatch victory if one of them were to sacrifice himself. It can be a simple trade, with lots of poignant description, or the DM can try to arrange a very dangerous way for a character or characters to obtain a win. If they win and survive, great. If they win and die, cool. They knew the choice they were making. If they still lose and die, also cool. It was a brave attempt and let their deaths not be in vain.  If they still lose and survive, well, they tried but at least they're alive.
[N]o difference is less easily overcome than the difference of opinion about semi-abstract questions. - L. Tolstoy
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11 months ago  ::  Jul 05, 2012 - 1:13AM #20
FloLeBlanc
Date Joined: Oct 15, 2007
Posts: 197
If there is not another goal for the monsters (as stated above) I normally allow Raise Dead, except for a Total Party Kill (TPK), which just ends the campaign and results in a "you loose" for the players.

I might add, that we all enjoy some threat on the horizon and all my players are ok with this style. (So far this is our 3rd campaign in this constellation and they still remember the day they died to the Beholder in Gardmore Abbey - he'll have a fulminant return in my next campaign )


As for the next campaign (currently one of the former players DMs) I plan to have a general struggle between "the world" and 4 greater demons, the chars will have a background story that allows them to live when not in a key encounter (at the edge of the tiers).
If they die - the key encounter will get harder. (very short version of the explaination)
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Dungeons & Dra.. What's a DM to Do? How do you guys deal with lethality in your games?
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