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5 months ago ::
Jan 14, 2013 - 10:47AM
#41
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Date Joined:
Jun 30, 2008
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The hate for pacifists is based on a couple of things.
Clerics already struggle with speeding up fights compared to most other leaders. Pacifist clerics tend to make that problem even worse since they do less damage than other clerics without adding enough to make up for it since clerics can already heal really well without the feat.
You are making sure you can't use some of the best powers the cleric has whenever you want to. Sometimes the pacifist powers are the best choices, but they usually aren't and really good powers like death surge, sacred flame, flame strike, and searing light all risk triggering a stun.
Pacifist powers tend to have charisma riders, which means your fort and reflex are both going to be bad if you invest in charisma. Wis clerics often are better off with constitution as their secondary.
The other problem is that most of the time the people who do make pacifist builds don't make good choices. They spend too many feats and items boosting healing and don't take the powers that can speed things up if used right. Cause fear for instance can potentially provoke a lot of OAs from strikers and defenders with the right set up and prophetic guidance can speed things up, particularly at low levels, but a lot of time you see something like exacting utterance taken instead.
my handbooks & builds
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5 months ago ::
Jan 14, 2013 - 11:04AM
#42
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To be honest though, the initial point of this build was really to see just how crazy high Healing Word could actually heal.
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5 months ago ::
Jan 14, 2013 - 11:16AM
#43
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Date Joined:
Feb 26, 2011
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Except Nausi already did that.
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5 months ago ::
Jan 14, 2013 - 1:26PM
#44
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I'm sorry, but i don't see the reason for all the hate either.
I do understand the tendancy for most pacificists to overdue it, not take any damaging powers, and spend far too many resources on boosting heals. So yes, i agree that's not the right way to do it.
However, i'm amazed that no one ever suggests there are other ways to play/build pacifists...
Like a year ago i made a pacifist for a shortist paragon campaign (its was a mid-op level 14 and lasted until level 16). I went Wis/Con (cha tertiary) took exactly 1 non damaging power (astral seal), and all of the other good clericy laser powers (basically I copied one Gelatinous's laser priest builds, but swapped a feat out for PH).
Every encounter i just zapped a mob that wasn't bloodied. And when he got bloodied, i started working on the next mob. Yes, this is a little less focus firey, but with some decent timing it was easy enough to soften them up for my strikers.
And finally, when there was one bloodied mob left I switched over to astral seal for some free healing before the encounter ended.
Granted, i didn't speed things up as much as a warlord ever would.
But i didn't feel any less effective than a traditional laser build (except for quite possibly, the final round of combat).
Why doesn't anyone ever recommend doing something like that for the people who absolutely must have the feat?
FWIW [4e designer] baseline assumption was that roughly 70% of your feats would be put towards combat effectiveness, parties would coordinate, and strikers would do 20/40/60 at-will damage+novas. If your party isn't doing that... well, you are below baseline, so yes, you need to optimize slightly to meet baseline.
-Alcestis
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5 months ago ::
Jan 14, 2013 - 1:32PM
#45
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Date Joined:
Feb 26, 2011
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Laser Clerics are bad too. They're just better than Pacifists.
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5 months ago ::
Jan 14, 2013 - 1:46PM
#46
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One would argue that if it is still considered better, then it should still be addressed an option: "Pacifist is really the weakest cleric build, blah blah, blah... But if you must have it, consider using this set of powers, and this strategy. It's the best way to be effective in combat and still use that feat". To put it another way, in general CharOp terms, there is a vast difference between: taking something you know to be inferior and trying to optimize because you think it'll be fun and taking something that is inferior because you think it is superior. And in both cases, i think we all agree that we should make sure the poster realizes exactly what they are getting into, and the common pitfalls associated with such actions. And make sure they are making an informed decision. But if they actually understand the complications they will face, where's the harm in helping them optimize a subpar idea? 
FWIW [4e designer] baseline assumption was that roughly 70% of your feats would be put towards combat effectiveness, parties would coordinate, and strikers would do 20/40/60 at-will damage+novas. If your party isn't doing that... well, you are below baseline, so yes, you need to optimize slightly to meet baseline.
-Alcestis
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5 months ago ::
Jan 14, 2013 - 1:49PM
#47
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Date Joined:
Feb 26, 2011
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Its already been done, its been optimized until the cows come home. There are countless threads on it. Its not like its new.
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5 months ago ::
Jan 14, 2013 - 1:59PM
#48
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Understood.
But to clarify, but i meant that more in general charop terms.
Not every thread is something that's been discussed/mapped out/optimized/etc ad naseau...
FWIW [4e designer] baseline assumption was that roughly 70% of your feats would be put towards combat effectiveness, parties would coordinate, and strikers would do 20/40/60 at-will damage+novas. If your party isn't doing that... well, you are below baseline, so yes, you need to optimize slightly to meet baseline.
-Alcestis
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5 months ago ::
Jan 14, 2013 - 2:38PM
#49
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Date Joined:
Dec 28, 2012
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The resources for optimised cleric builds are not that hard to find.
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5 months ago ::
Jan 14, 2013 - 2:47PM
#50
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Date Joined:
Jun 30, 2008
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There is one in my cleric build handbook that does that. Takes the powers I would take if I was playing a pacifist build in a party where at least a few people have decent or good BAs.
I ended up with a wis/con snerfneblin serifal feywarden/luckbringer of Tymorra/reincarnate champion. Mcing for shamans spirit prey 1/encounter. Has a few vulnerability exploits that he can use while also provoking a couple of OAs and an RBA most encounters at the same time.
my handbooks & builds
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