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11 months ago ::
Jul 10, 2012 - 7:13PM
#71
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By the way, the last time I rolled an Intelligence check for “logic” was ... never. I never had an encounter when I needed to.
So for me, including it with Wisdom, for the same reason as including Search with Perception, is more about organizing the abilities into clear units. It doesnt diminish the value of Intelligence in any way.
• I use Intelligence for memory, particularly lore.
• I use Wisdom to “notice stuff”.
It is that simple.
Moreover, by being highly aware of the use of Intelligence for memory, I am more likely to use it more often. I will especially use Intelligence checks to see if adventurers are able to understand and use any kind of “advanced technology”, and that may apply to magic paraphernalia. Alchemy rituals require Intelligence. It isnt just about processing the information, there is an enormous amount of information to keep track of.
Oh, and I allow lore checks to grant Insight bonuses to combat actions.
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11 months ago ::
Jul 10, 2012 - 7:37PM
#72
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Date Joined:
Aug 25, 2007
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Tha still leaves intelligence as a fairly worthless stat. If you include logic and reasoning in it it can effect a much wider range of skills and abilities.
Disable device
Cryptography
Navigation
puzzle solving when the players are stumped
etc.
Why would they design the game so 2 mental stats cover 10+ things and one of them only covers 1 thing and it isn't even the most valuable thing.
While dropping down to 4 stats is an option it comes with flaws of its own especially without some kind of benefit/flaw system. The less stats you have the less accurately you can define your character via the rules, the more you have the better definition you have but the harder it becomes to balance and it becomes more complex. 6-8 stats seems like a sweet spot to me, yeah that leaves every stat as fairly broad, but there is enough variance to define your character without becoming needlessly complex.
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11 months ago ::
Jul 10, 2012 - 7:48PM
#73
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Tha still leaves intelligence as a fairly worthless stat.
Wait a second.
Officially (!), Intelligence does nothing except “memory” and “reason”.
If in the past 10 or so years, I have never needed to make a “reason” check. Obviously its removal is irrelevant, in terms of power.
If you include logic and reasoning in it it can effect a much wider range of skills and abilities.
Disable device
Cryptography
Navigation
puzzle solving when the players are stumped
etc.
Now some these I would use Intelligence anyway, because of memory.
• Cryptography - absolutely a memory check. You have to think about all of the possible things it could be saying, especially probable that it is being said in some obscure language.
• Disable device - it depends on how advanced the technology is. A snare? Of course not Intelligence. But a thousand gear clockwork automaton, requiring an understanding of physics? Definitely Intelligence. Not only that, I would allow an Intelligent adventurer to use this skill to BUILD a machine.
• Navigation - absolutely Wisdom. Even in 4e, this is a Nature check using Wis.
• Puzzle - I use Wisdom anyway to “notice” clues.
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11 months ago ::
Jul 10, 2012 - 8:00PM
#74
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While dropping down to 4 stats, ... the less stats you have the less accurately you can define your character via the rules.
Actually, these four *meaningful* and *useful* and *balanced* abilities allow a player to define a character *more* accurately.
First of all, the definition actually means something clear - rather than something vague - and in its plainest sense is defined more accurately.
Second of all, the definition is useful, so you will actually apply the mechanic during the game. So the way you define the concept accurately gets reflected within the actions in the game.
Third of all, the definition is balanced, so you dont feel cheated by the system because of your concept. And you are less likely to resort to mechanics that are alien to your concept, because you need this mechanics to stay competitive.
Finally, when there are only four abilities, and these four are meaningfully different, you can finetune your character by choosing skills that represent narrower aspects within each ability. These skill choices are likewise, meaningful, useful, and balanced, because they can use your choice of abilities in ways that make sense for your concept. In this way too, these four abilities can define a character more accurately and more precisely.
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11 months ago ::
Jul 10, 2012 - 8:17PM
#75
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Date Joined:
Mar 31, 2012
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While dropping down to 4 stats, ... the less stats you have the less accurately you can define your character via the rules.
Actually, these four *meaningful* and *useful* and *balanced* abilities allow a player to define a character *more* accurately.
First of all, the definition actually means something clear - rather than something vague - and in its plainest sense is defined more accurately.
Second of all, the definition is useful, so you will actually apply the mechanic during the game. So the way you define the concept accurately gets reflected within the actions in the game.
Third of all, the definition is balanced, so you dont feel cheated by the system because of your concept. And you are less likely to resort to mechanics that are alien to your concept, because you need this mechanics to stay competitive.
Finally, when there are only four abilities, and these four are meaningfully different, you can finetune your character by choosing skills that represent narrower aspects within each ability. These skill choices are likewise, meaningful, useful, and balanced, because they can use your choice of abilities in ways that make sense for your concept. In this way too, these four abilities can define a character more accurately and more precisely.
I actually have to agree with this mentality. I've played a couple RPGs, where the stats are Body, Agility, Mind, and Soul, or some derivatives, and I've found that I like these better than the 6-stat distribution, and they're easier to balance, too. Not that WotC would ever do it, but it would also be cool to match with the 4 classic classes: Fighter: Body, Rogue: Agility, Wizard: Mind, and Cleric: Soul. Body would be Str and Con, Agility would be Dex, Mind would be Int, and take some of wis, and Soul would be Cha and the rest of wis.
That way you'd have as class-important stats, besides the classic 4:
Ranger: Body (main), Agility (secondary)
Paladin: Body and Soul (either could be main or secondary, or they could be co-mains)
Barbarian: Body (main), Agility (secondary)
Warlord: Soul (main), Body (Secondary, or co-main) or Mind (secondary)
Bard: Soul (Main) Any other (secondary; depends the direction. Mind would be more lore based, Agility would be more Thief-like, and Body would be like the Valorous Bard of 4e)
Monk: Soul (Main), Either Body or Agility (secondary; depends on whether you want a stronger, tougher Monk, or a more defensive, more mobile monk)
Druid: Soul (main), Either Body or Agility (secondary)
Invoker: Soul (main) Mind (secondary)
Sorcerer: Soul (main), Body (secondary)
Warlock: Soul (main), Body (secondary or co-main) or Mind (secondary)
Artificer: Mind (Main), Body (secondary)
Alchemist: Mind (main), Agility (Secondary)
Still, WotC won't ever implement this.
I am currently raising funds to run for President in 2016. Too many administrations have overlooked the international menace, that is Carmen Sandiego. I shall devote any and all necessary military resources to bring her to justice.
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11 months ago ::
Jul 11, 2012 - 12:35AM
#76
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Date Joined:
Mar 26, 2007
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Well, as al ability scores are now subject to attack (saving throws), looks like they will all be valuable, not really great to dump any (when you go up against that monster with the power that forces Cha saves).
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