Although it's not precisely relevant/on-topic, particularly because it had a great many more than D&D does, but I loved the breakdown of attributes in Deadlands:
Cognition: Perception and spacial awareness Knowledge: memory/retention of information, and learned/trained intellectual skills Mien: Social skills, interpersonal communication, and social and sexual appeal Smarts: Quickness of thought, mental "horsepower" including ability to calculate on the fly Spirit: Guts, perseverance, willpower and depth of belief Deftness: Hand-eye coordination Nimbleness: Over-all physical coordination and dexterity Quickness: Raw reflex, and ability to maximize action through speed and economy of motion Strength: Physical Muscle and power Vigor: Health and endurance
Now, in that setting (old west) hand eye coordination deserves it's own attribute, though in most other settings the Nimbleness/Deftness dichotomy doesn't need to be there. Several other attributes could be combined as well, but I think it gives a significantly better (and more accurate) breakdown than most systems.
Although I don't think it'll happen, I'd love to see an overhaul of the stat system something along the lines of:
Physique: Strength, endurance and health. Used for melee damage, typical STR and some CON checks/requirements, Endurance checks and many physical saves, many physical skills.
Reflex: Reaction speed and precision/economy of swift motion. Used for Initiative, Attack Bonus, Reaction (AoO) number and/or modifiers, some avoidance saves.
Dexterity: Coordination, balance, and nimbleness. Used for ranged/Finesse damage, typical DEX checks/requirements, Dodge AC bonus, fine manipulation, many avoidance saves, many physical skills.
Perception: Awareness of self, of others, of surroundings, acuteness of senses and detail of memory. Used for awareness/notice checks, search, resistance to bluff, stealth, illusion, etc, and attempts to remember fine detail, many skills, both mental and physical where notice is involved.
Intelligence: Quickness of calculation, flexibility of thought, and ability to retain and internalize complex or technical information easily. Used for some spell damage, typical INT and some WIS checks/requirements, some mental saves, attempts to grasp and interpret foreign information or sensory input, many mental skills.
Identity: Sureness of self, strength and force of personality, dept of commitment and belief. Used for some spell damage, typical CHA and some WIS checks/requirements, many mental saves (Will), most social interaction, many social and mental skills.
When I say "typical STR/CON/INT/DEX/etc" checks/requirements, I mean tasks that would have required that roll in the current/old system.
On top of all that, skills remain de-coupled from attributes, and roll on whichever is more appropriate at the time. Perception, Search, etc will no longer be actual skills, and instead would roll the most appropriate skill (if any) with perception. Finding a trap? Roll your Trap skill + Perception. Disarming one? Roll trap skill with either INT or DEX. Rifling through somebody's house for valuables? Use appraise + Perception. Trying to sell them afterwards? Use appraise + INT or maybe Identity. Stuff like that. Any thoughts?
D&D INTELLEGENCE Knowledge: memory/retention of information, and learned/trained intellectual skills [Mental Capacity]
D&D WISDOM Cognition: Perception and spacial awareness Smarts: Quickness of thought, mental "horsepower" including ability to calculate on the fly Perception [bluff, stealth, illusion] Intelligence [quickness of thought, sensory input] [Mental Agility]
D&D CHARISMA Spirit: Guts, perseverance, willpower and depth of belief Mien: Social skills, interpersonal communication, and social and sexual appeal [sense of style, not physical goodlooks] Identity [sense of self, force of personality, determination] [Mental Endurance]
D&D STRENGTH Strength: Physical Muscle and power [Capacity]
D&D DEXTERITY Deftness: Hand-eye coordination Nimbleness: Over-all physical coordination and dexterity Quickness: Raw reflex, and ability to maximize action through speed and economy of motion Reflex Dexterity [Agility]
D&D CONSTITUTION Vigor: Health and endurance Physique [Endurance]
Note, a skill or feat can finetune one of these specific aspects of an ability.
I'm still having hard time wrapping my head around the functionality of your breakdown.
The way you have things set out above, every single Fighter would be better off building high DEX low STR and using lighter armor and finesse weapons. And not by a little bit, I mean by a LOT! That is, of course, if by including Reflex under there, you're asserting that all attack bonuses should be dependent on DEX only rather than the typical function of STR in adding to melee attack bonus.
Likewise, the breakdown you have with INT means that the "absent minded professor", a common archetype, isn't really possible. You can build a character that knows a lot of stuff by rote who has low wisdom, but you can't build a character who's actually brilliant (ie good at thinking on the fly, doing quick calculations, or figuring things out) without them also being incredibly perceptive and aware of their surroundings.
Also, in D&D I don't think you need a separate stat that only represents how much you know by rote, since that's already represented by static skill bonuses.
I'm still having hard time wrapping my head around the functionality of your breakdown.
The way you have things set out above, every single Fighter would be better off building high DEX low STR and using lighter armor and finesse weapons.
To me that makes sense. A Fighter could have average Strength, and therefore be *unable* to use “heavy weapons” or “heavy armor”. Then invest in high Dexterity and optimize around “light weapons” and “light armor”, and possibly high speed to function as a high-mobility “skirmisher” to avoid getting hit in the first place. Maybe even suffer low Constitution?
(Here “light weapons” means able to apply Dexterity, the same thing as finesse. “off-hand” weapons need to named as such, because handness is an important weapon property: two-hand, hand-and-half, one-hand, off-hand.)
Alternatively, a Fighter could have high Strength and use “heavy weapons” that deal much more damage, and “heavy armor” that apparently will be a best armor option in 5e. Then maybe suffer low Dexterity, but invest in Constitution to be a hit-point tank.
Likewise, the breakdown you have with INT means that the "absent minded professor", a common archetype, isn't really possible. You can build a character that knows a lot of stuff by rote who has low wisdom, but you can't build a character who's actually brilliant (ie good at thinking on the fly, doing quick calculations, or figuring things out) without them also being incredibly perceptive and aware of their surroundings.
The phrase “absent minded” means different things, depending on context:
• Simply being forgetful, like senility. Less memory, lower Int. • Not paying attention to what other people are doing. Less social savvy, less sense of self, lower Cha. • Lost in thought, and not paying attention to surroundings. Less perception, lower Wis.
Also, in D&D I don't think you need a separate stat that only represents how much you know by rote, since that's already represented by static skill bonuses.
Right, if we dont need a separate ability for capacity, we can just merge Strength with the other two physical abilities and reduce three abilities to two: Agility and Endurance.
And since we dont need a separate abilty for mental capacity, we can just merge Intellingence with other two mental abilities and reduce three mental abilities to two: Mental Agility and Mental Endurance.
This game is so much better with only four abilities.
Since there is no way - no way - 5e is going to eliminate the tradition of six abilities ... we might as well do the best we can with what we are stuck with.
Therefore:
• Strength means zero except physical capacity (lift weight). • Intelligence means zero except mental capacity (recall memory).
These definitions arent so bad. If someone can lift enormous weight, they are strong, and people think of them as being strong. Likewise, if someone has amazing memory, they are intelligent, and people think of them as being intelligent. It works.
Since there is no way - no way - 5e is going to eliminate the tradition of six abilities ... we might as well do the best we can with what we are stuck with.
Therefore:
• Strength means zero except physical capacity (lift weight). • Intellgence means zero except mental capacity (recall memory).
Well, I agree with you insofar as the "same old" attributes aren't going anywhere, but if that's a given then I think the worst possible solution is to intentionally devalue two of them. All that does is produce an exceptionally poorly balanced game.
To me that makes sense. A Fighter could have average Strength, and therefore be *unable* to use “heavy weapons” or “heavy armor”. Then invest in high Dexterity and optimize around “light weapons” and “light armor”, and possibly high speed to function as a high-mobility “skirmisher” to avoid getting hit in the first place. Maybe even suffer low Constitution?
I'm all for a fighter having the option of a "finesse" build, which they do presently, however in your model it would be impossible for a STR based fighter to consistently deal a comparable amount of damage to a DEX based fighter unless he ALSO had high DEX. That means the only effective way to build them is that way, so rather than your suggestion giving MORE options, it gives fewer. To make this viable, you'd have to increase the damage of "heavy" 2-h weapons by an order of magnitude.
Alternatively, a Fighter could have high Strength and use “heavy weapons” that deal much more damage, and “heavy armor” that apparently will be a best armor option in 5e. Then maybe suffer low Dexterity, but invest in Constitution to be a hit-point tank.
On that note, I haven't yet seen anything the Dev's have said that leads me to think that heavy armor will the the "best". All I'm aware they've said right now is that they intend to "rework" the entire equipment list, including armor. As it stands, heavy armor is actually the worst in the game, and it remains to be seen if it will even get better relative to the other armor types, let alone be the "best". If they've said something counter to that so far, I've missed it.
The phrase “absent minded” means different things, depending on context:
• Simply being forgetful, like senility. Less memory, lower Int. • Not paying attention to what other people are doing. Less social savvy, less sense of self, lower Cha. • Lost in thought, and not paying attention to surroundings. Less perception, lower Wis.
I'd agree had I simply said something about being absent minded, but as I said, I'm talking about the archetype. One of the most widely used caricatures in modern or ancient fiction. The specific literary stereotype of the "absent minded professor". THIS: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absent-minded_prof...
Now, in that context, it's impossible with your system. You can not be SMART (I don't mean educated, I mean actually intelligent) without also being PERCEPTIVE. You can't be a person who's exceptionally aware of your surroundings without also being a genius. I just don't like it.
I'm all for a fighter having the option of a "finesse" build, which they do presently, however in your model it would be impossible for a STR based fighter to consistently deal a comparable amount of damage to a DEX based fighter unless he ALSO had high DEX.
This Str Fighter deals more damage than Dex Fighter: • Heavy weapons (1d12) deal more damage than light weapons (1d6) (1d8 tops). • Str adds to weapon damage. It seems 5e doesnt add Dex to damage. Only to d20 attack.
Im unclear why a Str Fighter needs to also have Dex? Neither the attack, nor the damage, nor even armor would benefit from it.
I think adding Dex to the damage of an off-hand weapon, like a dagger makes sense, since a dagger is silly small ... and useless ... except in the hands of an agile (explosive, quick, accurate) wielder. Also, an off-hand weapon is the only weapon a person can use while grappling.
On armor, they are reworking it to make heavy better than medium, and light less good than heavy.
Now, in that context, it's impossible with your system. You can not be SMART (I don't mean educated, I mean actually intelligent) without also being PERCEPTIVE. You can't be a person who's exceptionally aware of your surroundings without also being a genius. I just don't like it.
Using the term as this specific trope defines it:
“The phrase "absent-minded professor" is also commonly used more generally in English to describe people who are so engrossed in their 'own world' that they fail to keep track of their surroundings. It is a common stereotype that professors get so obsessed with their research that they pay little attention to anything else.”
There are a number of ways to mechanically express this flavorful trope.
1.
In a reallife context, for real people, these absent-minded professors are simply concentrating on something else.
So in D&D terms, these professors are using a power (or ritual) that requires a mechanic of “concentration”. In 4e, this might mean they must continuously use actions to “sustain” the power. If the action only requires a minor action to sustain, then they are only slightly distracted by what they are concentrating on. However, if the power requires a move action to sustain, then they are greatly distracted. Its almost as if they are dazed - the only have one standard action and a minor action. Thus they can walk to a door and open it, but do nothing else that round. Stand still and interact with a student who needs to get a homework assignment or something. And nothing else. And so on.
2.
Unother way to handle this, is as a learning disabilty. The professors are obviously smart in some ways, but obviously impaired in other ways. These professors are autistic. Simply, you can treat this as if a disease.
3.
For the sake of argument lets assume, the absent-mindedness is simply a result of an array of aptitudes (ability scores).
Probably, these professors have very good memory. High Int. At the very least, they can remember enough to keep themselves busy!
They seem to have decent Charisma, doing what they want with a strong sense of self, and it seems the students and faculty value them, and work with them.
Clearly, these professors suck at perception: “they fail to keep track of their surroundings.”
So, the question is: Are these professors “quick thinking”, cunning, shrewd, astute, mentally agile?
I say, no they arent. The have amazing memory, but they have to process this memory slowly. It takes time to connect the dots, see it in different ways than they learned it, draw insights from it. Can they do it if they need to? Of course, given enough time.
So, using a heroic array from 10 to 15, I say the absent-minded professors might have the following abilities:
Physical: Str 10, Dex 11 (clumbsy too?), Con 13 (healthy/frail could go either way) Mental: Int 15 (their primary ability), Wis 12, Cha 14 (their secondary ability)
Suppose someone instists this trope really is “quick thinking”? Then they still have relatively low Wis 12, but with a +3 Think Fast skill bonus of some kind.
4.
Back to reallife. There can be different parts of the brain focusing on different things at different times. For example, if I am driving, being in a deep conversation with my friend in the passanger seat, it can distract me from paying attention to where I am heading. (I can drive safe, but I might miss an exit.) The same parts of the brain that I am using to track a conversation are the same parts of the brain I use to track navigation.
In D&D, it isnt so important to keep track of reallife neuropsychological sciences. For D&D it is useful enough to say, I was using my “action” to make some kind of Charisma check to interact with my friend instead of making some kind of Wisdom check to track my travelling progress. (Should it ever be important to make these kinds of checks in the first place).
5.
Finally, recalling a memory, especially “know lore”, isnt a “free action”. When most people run into something truly obscure that they havent thought about for years, it takes a moment to jog the memory to return to the context that they learned it. In 5e terms, its at least a equivalent to a move action. They sit with chin on knuckles, and ponder, and at some point it comes to them. And they are definitely concentrating.
In all five mechanical scenarios, the proposed abilities work well for the absent-minded professors too.
I'm all for a fighter having the option of a "finesse" build, which they do presently, however in your model it would be impossible for a STR based fighter to consistently deal a comparable amount of damage to a DEX based fighter unless he ALSO had high DEX.
This Str Fighter deals more damage than Dex Fighter: • Heavy weapons (1d12) deal more damage than light weapons (1d6) (1d8 tops). • Str adds to weapon damage. It seems 5e doesnt add Dex to damage. Only to d20 attack.
In the How to Play booklet, on page 17 under "Melee Weapon Categories", it states that Finesse Weapons allow the substitution of DEX for both attack and damage rolls.
To make sure we're not confused, I want to question one more thing again. You're saying that melee attack bonus should be the sole province of DEX, right? That's what I got out of your statement before and you confirmed my above assertion about that, though you didn't quote it or respond to it directly, so I'm just trying to be clear.
If that's correct, and +hit in melee only comes from DEX (which I certainly see the logical argument for) then no, even with lower weapon damage, high DEX characters will do more damage, be more defensive, more mobile, and benefit from greater skill bonuses and fewer skill penalties in most situations. Plus they can do so for a heck of a lot less gold. Example: Fighter A is using a shortsword and has DEX 18. Fighter B is using a Great Axe and has STR 18.
Fighter A has +7 attack and deals an average of 7.5 damage on a hit. Fighter B has +3 attack and deals an average of 10.5 damage on a hit.
They each attack a Hobgoblin with AC 15. Fighter A has a 60% chance to hit which means he deals an average of 4.5 damage per attack. Fighter B has a 40% chance to hit which means he deals an average of 4.2 damage per attack. Fighter A can upgrade to a Quarterstaff and deal an average of 5.1 damage per attack. Fighter B has no option for increased damage.
That's also not including the possibility of dual wielding, since those rules aren't included yet. Assuming they're along the lines of earlier versions, you're likely to end up with an even greater damage differential.
Im unclear why a Str Fighter needs to also have Dex? Neither the attack, nor the damage, nor even armor would benefit from it.
For the above reason, if DEX is the only source of +hit, then to be on par the Fighter would also have to invest in moderate to high dexterity.
I think adding Dex to the damage of an off-hand weapon, like a dagger makes sense, since a dagger is silly small ... except in the hands of a precise dealer. Also, an off-hand weapon is the only weapon a person can use while grappling.
On armor, they are reworking it to make heavy better than medium, and light less good than heavy.
When they add in the two weapon fighting rules, they may indeed offer dex, or at least .5 DEX, to offhand damage. They may also re-introduce 1.5 STR damage for a 2 hander. And yes, in a grapple, usable weapons should be limited to various daggers, brass knuckles/cestus, armor spikes, clubs (baton and tonfa), and shortswords. There are probably a few more in there, but they're not coming to mind off hand. One more advantage to the light-weapons category, really.
I'm all for the finesse Fighter being a viable play style, but I just don't want it to end up being the ONLY viable playstyle. With your model, to do anything else would offer self imposed limitation without discernible benefit.
Also, do you remember what interview/blog/article/etc they talked about the armor overhaul in? I haven't seen it yet and I'd like to read over it myself (nom nom nom)
“ We're completely re-working armor. We're bulking up heavy armor, giving medium armor a better definition, and slightly pulling back on light armor.
Heavy armor allows no Dex bonus but has a high base value. Heavy armor always gives disad on attempts to be stealthy. Medium armorhas +2 Dex max or no Dex allowed. It sits below heavy armor.Classes like the ranger and barbarian are proficient with it. Some medium armors give disad on checks to hide or move silently. Basically, if you play a ranger or barbarian, you can either junk Dex and take a "heavier" medium armor or take a lighter one that lets you be stealthy.
Light armor allows full Dex and has no stealth drawbacks.
