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I would disagree that charisma is willpower, per se. I've met unlikeable people who were very determined, and likeable people who were very undetermined. Perhaps charisma could affect your party members' willpower? It should certainly affect henchmen. You can always hire henchmen regardless of charisma, but it certainly affects how much money they'll ask for or how willing they are to betray you. Being adept at persuasion, deception, and bartering are also quite important, and it always comes into play in my games. For those who say it's a dump stat and that physical prowess rules the game, bear in mind that no matter how tough someone is, there is always someone tougher...

Personally I've just boiled INT and WIS into one stat. They are both functions of the mind, and it seems like splitting hairs to make them two stats since they basically do the same thing. How wise a character is really depends more on how the player role-plays. You can't tell me that a chaotic stupid cleric with 18 wisdom can be considered wise...

And while on the subject, drop alignment entirely. It does nothing for roleplaying, since a person's morality is seldom based on a rigid ideology. Moral ambiguity is more fun.

Jul 7, 2012 -- 5:56PM, Haldrik wrote:

Charisma can mean things beside “likable”. It can also mean “scary”, “disturbing”, “uncanny”, “mysterious”, “prestigious”.

People that *seem* “competent” have high Charisma. It is part of their personal drive - self-identity, decisive goals, and so on.

Ahh, so by charisma we mean force of presence? I can see that. Still though, just because someone has a strong force of presence doesn't necessarily mean people will react positively to them or do what they say. I've known extremely strong willed/strong presence type people who others simply avoid. Would they be considered charismatic? Probably not.

The thing is, reallife Charismatic people have certain qualities, including a strong sense of self (even if they are highly insecure they still are strongly self-willed, Lady Diana is good example of this, probably Marylin Monroe too). Also Charismatic people have extreme empathy, and simply “know” intuitively whether people are responding positively or negatively.

Thus it seems, “mental discipline” in the sense of strong sense of self, strong self-identity, enduring meaningfulness, decisive personal goals, and the ablity to encourage others to pursue these goals, are all aspects of Charisma. There is a nexus between strong force of presence and willpower.

Charisma relates to “mental endurance”.

By contrast, Wisdom is “mental agility”. Quick thinking, accurate perception, attending precisely, and adjudicating competently.

“Coming up with solutions to problems” is exactly Wisdom.

Wisdom is “mental agility” - quick-thinking, shrewdness, cunning.

Wisdom is more than passive “perception” of details, it is also the active ability to interract with the surroundings in a detail-oriented way, such as to draw a picture that looks life-like. It isnt Dexterity, its the Wisdom mastering the *application* of the theories and techniques of art.

I agree Wisdom handles deception/hiding saves. But Wisdom is also responsible for creating plausible lies on the fly, and creating convincing art, disguises, and forgeries.



Intelligence really is just memory: “lore”. It doesnt need to be formally academic knowledge. Intelligent heroes can be self-taught mastering Natural Lore, and so on.

Someone can know a lot of information (high Int) but not be especially quick-thinking (low Wis), nor even all that insightful (connect the dots).



Charisma can be disciplined, but not necessarily in a regimented way. The artist with a high Charisma is “disciplined” in the sense of extreme dedication to art as a part of self-identity, and this may have nothing to do with structuring time methodically. Art often happens during intense peaks of inspiration. Procrastinators are fine. Bill Clinton is probably an example of high Charisma but “creatively loose” organization and procrastination. Tho to become president he must have some kind of regimen (because of Hillary?).