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12 months ago ::
Jun 27, 2012 - 8:55AM
#11
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Date Joined:
Jun 23, 2012
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I'm a big fan of henchmen and followers. Particularly since they'll remain combat useful much longer than in 3.X.
If I remember correctly though, they required individual feats to gain access. I could be wrong though; it's been a long time.
I think the Warlord may have some specific options regarding followers, as well as the bard, if it ends up being a proper class.
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12 months ago ::
Jun 27, 2012 - 10:43AM
#12
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Date Joined:
Dec 13, 2003
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Willpower definitely seems like a Charisma-based attribute now. I am not sure why Hold Person or Charm requires a Wisdom check.
That said, I'd like to see more things give you an option on what save to roll. Hold Person should be breakable via Willpower, but it seems quite arguable that you should be able to break it by brute force with Strength. A lot of saves seem like this to me.
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12 months ago ::
Jun 27, 2012 - 11:14AM
#13
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Date Joined:
Mar 31, 2012
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The problem with Cha, to me, is that I see the reason for it to be a separate stat, but I don't really like many of the solutions proposed for it. I do like giving Cha Willpower, but to me, henchmen have always seemed like more of an RP thing than a stat-based thing. At least, whenever I've used them in any way simulating how they were used in the past, it's usually something where, in preparation for a big battle, the king, or Duke, or whoever gives the Party one or two of his best guards, to join them, or maybe some recurring mercenary NPC I made would decide to lend his skills to the group, free of charge, in order to take out the Big Bad.
How about some sort of Morale system, which would affect stuff like intimidation or Fear effects. You could essentially have the Morale be something like Cha score, and increase by HD roll+Cha Modifier (minimum 1) each level, making it almost the "mental Con." Cha then could also give two things, which can modify this number, within a fight. Inspiring, and Intimidating. With Intimidation, it could be a Cha vs Cha check, and on a success, you deal some amount of Morale damage. With Inspiration you make a Cha check, something like DC 10-12, but if the person was dealt HP or Morale damage, the check has disadvantage. On a success that heals some morale Losing Morale would be usually less dangerous than HP damage, but it would still be a stiff penalty. When Morale hits 0, the character is shaken, which would mean a penalty to checks, and at a Morale value equal to the negative of 10+Cha Modifier, the character flees from battle.
I actually don't particularly like this solution, but it's basically the best I can think of given the circumstances, and it seems to fit with the concept of Cha includes Willpower.
I am currently raising funds to run for President in 2016. Too many administrations have overlooked the international menace, that is Carmen Sandiego. I shall devote any and all necessary military resources to bring her to justice.
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12 months ago ::
Jun 27, 2012 - 11:29AM
#14
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Date Joined:
Dec 13, 2003
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I actually don't particularly like this solution, but it's basically the best I can think of given the circumstances, and it seems to fit with the concept of Cha includes Willpower.
I'd favor just using something like a Condition Track from Star Wars SAGA to handle morale and other generic status effects that impede function in a general way.
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12 months ago ::
Jun 27, 2012 - 11:38AM
#15
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While I am not sure of what the mechanic or result should be, I agree that CHA should have a bigger impact and that all attributes should be tied to a mechanic within the game. Taking a lower score in any attribute should be, to my way of thinking, a significant choice of pros in one attribute versus cons in another attribute. Nothing should be a "dump stat" for that reason; it is a choice to be better at something else and less-good at what this attribute provides. I agree with those that say that many existing effects should be changed to "save" or affect CHA versus Wisdom. If we just go from the starting ideas of each attribute, I'm sure the game designers can think of some mechanical way to represent those effects. I'd define them this way (with actual or perceived mechanical effect included):
- STR - raw power => Attack, Damage, Lifting bonuses
- DEX - agility, coordination => Ranged attack, possible Defense, acrobatic and agility-based skills bonuses
- CON - endurance, vitality => Hit points (hit dice?), withstand poison, drunkenness, weather, etc. bonuses
- INT - learning, reasoning, logic => arcane spell power, knowledge bonsuses
- WIS - intuition, perception, judgment => divine spell power, perception, sense motive bonuses
- CHA - strength of character, comliness, willpower => defense versus influence, influencing others, interaction bonuses
My two cents worth.
Balance = Equally effective, but different, ways of reaching a goal or overcoming an obstacle.
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12 months ago ::
Jun 27, 2012 - 12:01PM
#16
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Date Joined:
Jun 29, 2011
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Problem is CHA already did all these. And if the player is not the "group leader" or "spokesmen" the non rpers or people that dont give two craps about interacting with anything pass a swordpoint are still going to dump it. We had few players that would have chars with the dump stat and get upset that they couldnt get the tavern wenches to warm their bed, but otherwise they didnt care if they were fugly and bad manners when they had 18 str and 18 con to own combat. Its hard to give cha a combat bonus/hinderence however. It must be big enough to not make it a dump stat, yet modest enough so everyone just doesnt throw all they got in cha hehe.
I do like that changing some saves to CHA however, a while back, when 3rd was new, me and my friend talked about how easy it was to "beat" the saving throws (speically when two of them saves were the most highest desired stat for almost any class) and that they should have sorted the saves into six catagories (One for each stat), we dabbled with the idea for a while but got lazy and never finished it lol.
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12 months ago ::
Jun 27, 2012 - 12:06PM
#17
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Date Joined:
Nov 16, 2009
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Seems like a good point to throw this around again: Charisma: Your strength of personality and influence, compelling attractiveness or charm that can inspire devotion in others. This can represent a divinely conferred power, talent or duty.
- Exploration: Used to affect morale when enduring hardships. (Ex: Positive or Negative reinforcement )
- Combat: Used for spells and actions that rely on your strength of personality or divine favor. (Ex: Convincing a weakened enemy to surrender)
- Social: Affects how you carry yourself, the general impression you present, and the ability to interact with others. (Ex:Attempting to inspire or incite a person or crowd)
- Defense: Protects you from attempts to manipulate you such as through fear or unnatural compulsion.
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12 months ago ::
Jun 27, 2012 - 12:23PM
#18
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I don't know if this is going to just happen to Cha.
If each ability has it's own saving throws, as stated but not truly represented in playtest, then there will be those gotchya spells that target Cha save. Having to pass on the Mind Flayer adventure because the fighter can't make a Cha save to being Dominated.
So now Int, Wis and Cha all need some padding. I thought 4e's two abilities per each save was a step forward. Individual ability score saving throws will be cool, but I don't see it as two steps back.
Without Int tied to skills, isn't Int a huge dump stat for most classes?
If Will saves get spread out among four other abilities (Dex covered Reflex and Con covered Fortitude), then isn't Wis value diminished. I mean, somone in the party is going to spot the enemy for you right?
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12 months ago ::
Jun 27, 2012 - 12:25PM
#19
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Thinking about Int relation to skill subsystems of past editions, what has Cha been related to. I mean core, not the Leadership feat.
Where does Cha modifier appear in the core mechanics of various editions?
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12 months ago ::
Jun 27, 2012 - 12:52PM
#20
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Date Joined:
Dec 13, 2003
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If charisma is used for most mental defense (at least attacks on your personality and such), I don't see how this remains a weak stat. If anything, it's one of the more important stats given its high use for all social situations. Wisdom similarly remains very useful.
Intelligence, Constitution, and Strength would be the weakest, I think, but part of this is because Dex is probably too good. Well, intelligence definitely needs some significant boost. Constitution...I'd like to see it add to any healing you receive (better than it's current use on hit dice rolls, which might well be ignored or made irrelevent with house/optional rules).
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