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12 months ago ::
Jun 18, 2012 - 7:13PM
#271
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Date Joined:
Sep 12, 2008
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I'm sorry, but there is really no way to play 4e without a grid. We've tried it and then the powers devolve into a mish-mash of conflicting images, and require a bunch of drawing out on paper (a grid analogue) to resolve.
To say that 4e doesn't require a grid is the same as saying a car doesn't NEED an engine to drive...your friends can get out and push it just fine...or it will coast down the occasional hill.
I do it all the time. I've done it with a map but no grid, and without even a map, and rarely had any issues.
Pretty much. It's not hard at all. I really don't get the problem people are having with doing it.
I've also seen, overwhelmingly, almost every group in every store (including running/working in a gaming store for over 13 years), college dorn, summer camp, home game, con game, from 1E through 4E, use a map (usually a grid), and minis or something else to represent their characters and the monsters. It's...almost like that's why Ral Partha, D&D and Reaper minis and the like have been around so long...because that's what they were being used for, even waaaaay back then.
It was never even looked upon as any way but normal. From summer camp games as a kid, to today, in every single version of the game, I've seen and used minis and (almost always a grid) map. No one ever complained about it in all these 30+ years, until 3E and 4E started to really codify the rules in a manner that made them grid friendly. Not grid-required...grid-friendly, so it went better on this oft-used set of tools. Because somehow having to convert everything from 5' increments or the like into squares was fine and easy as can be, but converting (5'x5') squares back into 5' distances...isn't? -_-
Suddenly, people who've used grid maps and minis for decades are suddenly opposed, and tout theatre of the mind. It's really...bizarre. The same people who I hear talk about theatre of the mind in one breath, and how they can't stand how minis and maps are so integral a part of the game, in the next will, when playing in an old school 2E AD&D game with them, break out what? That's right...their old Ral Partha pewter minis and a map, grid-based, with a detailed drawing on it. -_-
People are very funny creatures. I have to say.
Playing 4E without a grid and map is incredibly easy. As easy as playing 1E/2E on a grid map is. Really. Folks, you should give it a try.
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12 months ago ::
Jun 19, 2012 - 11:52AM
#272
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I'm sorry, but there is really no way to play 4e without a grid. We've tried it and then the powers devolve into a mish-mash of conflicting images, and require a bunch of drawing out on paper (a grid analogue) to resolve.
To say that 4e doesn't require a grid is the same as saying a car doesn't NEED an engine to drive...your friends can get out and push it just fine...or it will coast down the occasional hill.
I do it all the time. I've done it with a map but no grid, and without even a map, and rarely had any issues.
Pretty much. It's not hard at all. I really don't get the problem people are having with doing it.
I've also seen, overwhelmingly, almost every group in every store (including running/working in a gaming store for over 13 years), college dorn, summer camp, home game, con game, from 1E through 4E, use a map (usually a grid), and minis or something else to represent their characters and the monsters. It's...almost like that's why Ral Partha, D&D and Reaper minis and the like have been around so long...because that's what they were being used for, even waaaaay back then.
It was never even looked upon as any way but normal. From summer camp games as a kid, to today, in every single version of the game, I've seen and used minis and (almost always a grid) map. No one ever complained about it in all these 30+ years, until 3E and 4E started to really codify the rules in a manner that made them grid friendly. Not grid-required...grid-friendly, so it went better on this oft-used set of tools. Because somehow having to convert everything from 5' increments or the like into squares was fine and easy as can be, but converting (5'x5') squares back into 5' distances...isn't? -_-
Suddenly, people who've used grid maps and minis for decades are suddenly opposed, and tout theatre of the mind. It's really...bizarre. The same people who I hear talk about theatre of the mind in one breath, and how they can't stand how minis and maps are so integral a part of the game, in the next will, when playing in an old school 2E AD&D game with them, break out what? That's right...their old Ral Partha pewter minis and a map, grid-based, with a detailed drawing on it. -_-
People are very funny creatures. I have to say.
Playing 4E without a grid and map is incredibly easy. As easy as playing 1E/2E on a grid map is. Really. Folks, you should give it a try.
Yeeup. I've played 4e at a camping trip, with no table, using the inside of the tiles box that we brought our paper, pencils, etc in to roll dice.
But the norm has always been at a table, with minis or mini standins, on a map.
[fixed]
I kid, I kid.
Good to see you posting again, btw. i was worried you'd left for good.
It's rather funny the stages that people go through on these boards. Old adversaries almost become friends after the countless forum posts that originally seemed like mortal combat. And we still don't agree.
Good to see you around again too. I occasionally take a timeout.
Yeah, there's a few people around here that I argue with all the time but still somehow "get along with", I guess.
Which makes it really funny when someone accuses me of just being an ass to anyone that disagrees with me. :P But I've seen that accusation leveled at almost everyone, at least once.
More sex and gender equality and racial equality shouldn't even be an argument--it should simply be an assumption for any RPG that wants to stay relevant in the 21st century.
I could say anything in D&D is silly though, because it's a silly game and we are silly people.
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12 months ago ::
Jun 20, 2012 - 3:13AM
#273
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Date Joined:
Sep 26, 2001
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I'm sorry, but there is really no way to play 4e without a grid. We've tried it and then the powers devolve into a mish-mash of conflicting images, and require a bunch of drawing out on paper (a grid analogue) to resolve.
For years I and some of my friends ran Champions! TotM-style. Mainly for lack of a good gaming space with a large table. Champions! doesn't use a grid, it uses /hexes/, they're the basic unit of measurement. The usual thing was a battlemat, markers, and "cardboard heroes" (standies). Champions! has detailed rules for movement, and every sunday punch and energy blast does 'Knockback,' which not only moves the target, but does more damage to him if he hits something. 4e's occasional push 1 shift 2 is nothing compared to that. It doesn't stop there, there aren't just blast and bursts, there are cones, lines, explosions (that do different damage depending upon where you're standing) and litterally, "area effect: any area." It doesn't stop there, either, there are entangles and telekinetic grabs and super-strong characters grabbing, shoving, throwing and/or leaping. And, really, it never stops, because players can combine, limit, advantage, and special-effect powers into doing just about anything. And did I mention that it doesn't even use rounds? No, cyclical initiative here, there's a 'speed chart' - some characters go 4 times a turn, others 5 or 6 or 8, but in a distinct pattern. About the only concept that was helpful was "range bands." Y'know how all 4e ranged weapons are like 5/10, 10/20 etc? Well in hero, everything is 8/16/32/yougettheidea.
Now that I've typed that all out, I'm amazed I did it so long. Well, I was young, and it was a really fun game.
Anyway, if I can handle all that TotM, just about anyone could run 3e or 4e without a grid. The only good reason to do so would be because you have an inadequate play space, but it's entirely doable.
Love 4e? Concerned about its future? Join the Old Guard of 4e"You want The Tooth? You can't handle The Tooth!" - Dahlver-Nar. "If magic is unrestrained in the campaign, D&D quickly degenerates into a weird wizard show where players get bored quickly" - E. Gary Gygax
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12 months ago ::
Jun 20, 2012 - 11:39AM
#274
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I'm sorry, but there is really no way to play 4e without a grid. We've tried it and then the powers devolve into a mish-mash of conflicting images, and require a bunch of drawing out on paper (a grid analogue) to resolve.
To say that 4e doesn't require a grid is the same as saying a car doesn't NEED an engine to drive...your friends can get out and push it just fine...or it will coast down the occasional hill.
Heh. Maybe a “grid” is more like training wheels. Just playing.
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12 months ago ::
Jun 20, 2012 - 11:47AM
#275
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Date Joined:
Jun 17, 2010
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Grid vs no grid I like to compare to playing blindfold chess.
Sure, you can do it, but nobody who cares about the game does it as anything other than a joke or a training exercise.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
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12 months ago ::
Jun 20, 2012 - 11:49AM
#276
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I guess, the real analogy for grid versus mindseye, is chess versus novel. D&D has always incorporated both.
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12 months ago ::
Jun 20, 2012 - 11:59AM
#277
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Date Joined:
Mar 26, 2007
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Anyway, if I can handle all that TotM, just about anyone could run 3e or 4e without a grid. The only good reason to do so would be because you have an inadequate play space, but it's entirely doable.
There are many good reasons not to use a grid/minis.
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12 months ago ::
Jun 20, 2012 - 12:13PM
#278
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There are many good reasons not to use a grid/minis.
+1
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12 months ago ::
Jun 20, 2012 - 1:34PM
#279
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Date Joined:
May 24, 2012
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Anyway, if I can handle all that TotM, just about anyone could run 3e or 4e without a grid. The only good reason to do so would be because you have an inadequate play space, but it's entirely doable.
There are many good reasons not to use a grid/minis.
And at least as many good reasons to use a grid/minis.
But let's be real here, there is only one good reason not to use a grid: you don't like it.
Correspondingly, there is only one good reason to use a grid: you do like it.
The problem comes in when only one system is supported. The "module" system they are pushing means both systems (along with Turkish oil wrestling and figging) are going to be supported.
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12 months ago ::
Jun 20, 2012 - 2:04PM
#280
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Date Joined:
Mar 26, 2007
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And at least as many good reasons to use a grid/minis.
But let's be real here, there is only one good reason not to use a grid: you don't like it.
Never said there wasn't, I do like it, I like both (they say that about me...); I like to mix it up: TotM, a measuring tape and whatever pieces for position, or full blown tiles and army men, just depends.
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