|
1 year ago ::
Jun 12, 2012 - 5:52PM
#11
|
|
|
Int = memory and language
Wis = perception and detailed creativity
Cha = will and relationships
On INT: every core book I ever read explicitly mentions that it also includes logic, capacity to reason and solve puzzles.
Logic, and reason, and other modes of cognition are aspects of language. (Technically semiotics.) You can talk about the “language of math” for example, and it too is a mode of cognition.
Puzzles are often a combination of memory and language.
|
|
|
|
1 year ago ::
Jun 12, 2012 - 5:59PM
#12
|
|
|
If all abilities can do anything, then theres no point having abilities in the first place.
If players want a perceptive Rogue, then they MUST build a Dex-Wis Rogue. Since this archetype is a popular part of the D&D tradition, this specific option should be probably be an appealing choice.
Dex-Wis Rogue = Spy
Dex-Cha Rogue = Trickster
|
|
|
|
1 year ago ::
Jun 12, 2012 - 8:44PM
#13
|
|
|
Int = memory and language
Wis = perception and detailed creativity
Cha = will and relationships
+1 because it's a post that says Cha = will.
Instead of trying to take away one of the few things Wis has going for it, why not make Wis more useful for Rogues? Maybe let them use it for some other checks like lore. Since Wis is often associated with "street smarts" it'd make sense that a rogue would use it instead of Int.
What I think the Wilder Design Goals should be. Psionic Homebrew Mk2! Changed core, Focus Points, Psionic Potentials, stuff! Very basic core stuff. :P Homebrew Psionics blog posts archive: Spoiler:
Show
UPDATED Dec/18/2012: BAMN! Random update with a modest amount of hard rules for Animal Affinity, Telepathy, and Telekinesis. ADDED: Discipline Burn and more "soft" ideas.
Dec/13/2012: Small Psionics Homebrew Update, now that I'm done with Finals.
Really old.
Nov/02/2012:
I'm working on a homebrew Wilder, and so a homebrew Psionics system. Here's a 3 part post with info on where I am in the design process.
Part 1, Hard rules/example soulknife discipline: Link.
Part 2, Basic ideas/goals on basic numbers and classes: Link.
Part 3, Direction/ideas I want to take with specific disciplines: Link.:3
|
|
|
|
1 year ago ::
Jun 12, 2012 - 8:49PM
#14
|
Date Joined:
Mar 18, 2009
|
A part of the fix will be to give rogues an innate perception bonus, or even more theme/background options available for rogues that have perception bonuses as part of the package.
Edit: Or allow a theivery check as a substitute for a perception check if it's related to classic theif skills.
|
|
|
|
1 year ago ::
Jun 12, 2012 - 10:21PM
#15
|
Date Joined:
Jul 30, 2006
|
My players really hated the fact that perception is looking like its going to be based on Wisdom. They complained about it for over hour, and grumbled everytime they had too make a roll.
Im not sure if I like it myself either... im undecided at best. I guess its really going to come down to just how can I aquire bonuses to raise my perception rolls. No one wants to be surprised all the time.....
Lets face it, not being able to spot things is going to royally anger most people. Being bad at spotting traps, ambushes, and general awareness is bad enough. But being bad at finding secret stuff.... that angers alot of players.
Secret doors, secret chests, hidden treasure.... all these things players want to be able to stack some bonuses so they can find the goodies. And unless your playing a Wisdom heavy class, having to put a high number in wisdom isnt always going to be an option.
So again, what will players be able to take to offset low wisdom scores... so they wont get mad because yet again they failed to find the hidden treasure. It may sound lame.... but its a fact..... it will happen....
|
|
|
|
1 year ago ::
Jun 12, 2012 - 11:57PM
#16
|
Date Joined:
May 30, 2012
|
When perception is based primarily on Wisdom, that list isn't even remotely close. The paladin, who in my mind shouldn't be able to hear anything over the sound of his own armor and rarely pays attention to anything but his own holiness and watching the rogue, is actually close to the top in practice. The quiet, ovesrvant, and alert rogue, who had a whole class feature for this in AD&D, is in practice usually close to the bottom. In fact, other than the ranger and monk, none of these are at all close to where I think they should be.
This sounds more like an argument for more Rogue characters to have a good Wisdom stat and to make armor penalties apply to perception checks than any argument against Wisdom as the basis of perception tests. 3.x Rogues are awesome at Listen and Spot checks when they have high Wisdom scores. Better than Clerics and Paladins because they're class skills for the Rogue and the Rogue has a ton more skill points per level.
Considering the frequency with which observation checks are made in my playgroup, a normal conversation during character creation is "Ok, folks, do we have at least two people who can spot stuff?" This is regardless of game system. Fantasy, sci-fi, horror, you name it, we make sure we've got a fighting chance to notice things. This means in 3.x and PF games we always always always have at least a couple characters with reasonable Wisdom stats.
Basically it just boils down to arranging your character to suit your expectations of that character. If you want to be highly educated but cannot bear to invest in Intelligence for some reason, you're in a pickle. Something will have to give. There was the 2.5 (Skills & Powers) approach of splitting each stat into two sub-stats, but I don't recommend it. I found having twelve core stats to be a bit cumbersome. And Intuition was under Wisdom in that scheme, too, which is unacceptable to you.
My players really hated the fact that perception is looking like its going to be based on Wisdom. They complained about it for over hour, and grumbled everytime they had too make a roll.
I take it they would be upset if it were based on any other stat they wanted to treat as a point dumpster.
Secret doors, secret chests, hidden treasure.... all these things players want to be able to stack some bonuses so they can find the goodies. And unless your playing a Wisdom heavy class, having to put a high number in wisdom isnt always going to be an option.
You only need one character in a cooperative party to spot the secret door, secret chests, and hidden treasures. If one succeeds, everybody does.
|
|
|
|
1 year ago ::
Jun 13, 2012 - 12:10PM
#17
|
Date Joined:
Apr 23, 2005
|
Instead of trying to take away one of the few things Wis has going for it, why not make Wis more useful for Rogues?
Wait, what? Wis has few things going for it? Now that Fort is split between Str and Con saves, and Con has much less impact on HP than in previous editions, I'd go so far as to say that Wis is the second-most useful stat, after Dex. Wis saves are the second-most common, after Dex, and their effects are frequently debilitating rather than just damage. And Perception is by far the most-used skill check.
A part of the fix will be to give rogues an innate perception bonus, or even more theme/background options available for rogues that have perception bonuses as part of the package.
The former option fixes rogues being bad at Perception, but it doesn't help clerics and druids being the best, followed by paladins, rangers, and monks. That's not quite a backward list, but it's close.
The latter doesn't help anything. It means that the best perceivers will be clerics and druids with the right background. Right now an elven cleric soldier is the most perceptive build possible. Using the pregen stat spread, such a character would have, for instance, a 75% chance of finding a DC 17 trap. The halfling rogue--and it bears reminding that this was the iconic character for the job in 1e and 2e--has a 30% chance. That's just wrong.
"Edison didn't succeed the first time he invented Benjamin Franklin, either." Albert the Alligator, Walt Kelly's Pogo Sunday BookThe Core Coliseum: test out your 4e builds and fight to the death.
|
|
|
|
1 year ago ::
Jun 13, 2012 - 12:27PM
#18
|
Date Joined:
Nov 19, 2011
|
Let's just give more non-class-specific uses to INT, CHA and CON and it's all solved.
My character is called Ryotto Tyrannicide, wich comes from "tyrannicidal riot".
He wields two magic swords: King Beheader (as in "Beheader of Kings", not "King the Beheader") and Chain Splitter. He's also a bit of a skirt-chaser.
So yeah, I REALLY hope you have some Lawful Evil bad guys prepared for me. Government/trade/church conspiracies are optional, but highly recommended.
|
|
|
|
1 year ago ::
Jun 13, 2012 - 12:36PM
#19
|
Date Joined:
Dec 27, 2008
|
Make missile weapons based on wisdom instead of dexterity.
Now you can make a dextrous rogue who uses finesse weapons, or a perceptive rogue who uses a bow.
|
|
|
|
1 year ago ::
Jun 13, 2012 - 12:37PM
#20
|
Date Joined:
Jun 27, 2011
|
After reading this I actually prefer perception base +0, and the dm and player can make the call on what attribute bonus might be most appropriate. I too am not thrilled clerics make de facto better perceivers than thieves.
"The worthy GM never purposely kills players' PCs. He presents opportunities for the rash and unthinking players to do that all on their own." --Gary Gygax
|
|
|
