It occurs to me, whether on purpose or not, many of the Playtest descriptions of monsters and to some degree races, are being defined by *one* ability bonus that the monster is good at and *two* or more ability penalties that the monster is bad at.
For this reason, it may be necessary to prioritize, not only the two best abilities, but also the two worst abilities. For example, from best to worst, the race has the following abilities tendencies:
Depends on the character. But if my character concept was race-independent, then I'd pick the nonhuman with the boost to my two most-important stats and probably not care about the penalty to the two stats I wasn't plannign on using much anyway. That to me is much better than no penalty and a +1 to only one stat.
Bonuses are almost always more valuable than penalties because you are going to use the bonused Abilities more than the penalized Abilities.
Ok, fair enough. I want to see how others are looking at. To me, dumping one ability is no problem. I just consider it good flavor to have an achilles heal. But dumping two abilities starts to feel painful. When going thru the monsters and, based on icon, determining the second penalty in cases where more than one candidate is possible, made me hyper aware of what the race would be giving up with each penalty candidate.
The thing is, the bonus to a secondary ability is less important because it is possible to build around the primary only, especially for the attack bonus. So the pain of a second penalty versus the minor benefit of a second ability was less obvious.
I suppose, 5e is more multiple ability dependent, so the secondary bonus is more useful, but then the secondary penalty is also more painful.
Wow, there is a lot of very good stuff here. I do have a few comments, but first I shall tangent for a bit. I was pointed to this thread after mentioning my love for Genasi, so I want to focus on how they are being shown first. Then I will comment on the more important core concerns.
Right now you have gensai listed as the following:
Ignoring the lack of Lightning Genasi (obviously the coolest and best of them all ) I don't fully agree with your stats. While Genasi are supposed to be a "magical" race and Intelligence is the "magical" stat, I don't see them as being particularly intelligent. Ignoring class conventions for the moment I'd say Genasi should have a general bonus to Charisma, as that is the stat for force of personality. Who can be more passionate than a guy who embodies fire? More joyful than a girl who embodies the winds? Someone who argues like flowing water? And while a guy made of stone seems like a personality downer... just try changing the beliefs of a guy whose great-great grandfather was a mountain, then get back to me
This also has the interesting effect of making them closer to the sorcerer class, which would seem to be a better "magic user" class for them than the wizard. After all, a fire genasi shouldn't need to study to hard to figure out how to shoot fire from his hands... he kind of gets fire on an instintive level wouldn't you say?
As for their secondary stats... I agree with Earth Genasi getting Strength and Air Genasi getting Dexterity, these are pretty self-explanatory. I'm tempted to say Fire and Water should also get Str and Dex respectively. I've heard Genasi were "supposed" to fill the Swordmage class, so having each get either the finesse fighting or strength fighting stat would represent that. I defintely would argue for Water getting Dex for the flexibility and flow aspects of water, I can't quite see where you got Constitution for them. Fire is trickier, strength works well as Fire is often representive of the unstoppable fighter who "consumes" his foe with attack after attack, but I can see where you got Dex for fire's grace aspects... you could also argue Intelligence if it wasn't a main ability, but personally I would stick with Fire as a Str.
Now personally, and to bring in the general disscusion, I'm not a fan of stat penalties. Mostly because I recognize each stat as vitally important at different times, and I haven't had a group reliable enough to risk my character having a glaring flaw. Yes, I admit it. I want my characters to be at least decent at most things and I recognize that won't happen.
If I were to pick negatives I'd do the following. For Air I'd probably chose Constitution over Strength. Gale force winds are very powerful and I'd picture an airy character as more frail than weak. Earth I'd stick with Dex as a negative, lumbering and moving slowly fits that image. For Fire... I'd probably pick Wisdom as the negative to reflect their higher potential to "explode" and let their feelings override them. All Genasi have this to a degree, but Fire more than the others I'd say. Water is problematic (stupid water being gas, solid, and liquid) but I'd probably keep them opposite of Fire and make Intelligence their negative. They are more care-free and "floaty" so details pass them by and I'd say they'd care less about the world as a whole and their for wouldn't be studious.
I don't know if this "steps on the toes" of some of the other races, but with only six stats I'd say that's bound to happen to a degree. And if two races are equally good for stats, then flavor and racial abilities will differentiate them enough as far as I can tell.
I also disagree with the "Uber Mensch" human, but I don't think +1 to Any will satisify people by itself. We really need some defining traits.
Stat arrays... well like I said I want my characters as balanced as possible. Ideally a +1 for every modifier, but that leads to me being less effective. Lowering those numbers could work, but it could also lead to people feeling their character's don't grow as much as they'd like. Adding three seperate elements (Defense, Skill, Attack) would seem to be slightly more balanced, but then reduces the simplicity we are going for by adding more upfront number crunching, and a terrible headache when those numbers change and you have to track them all down.
I'd also agree with the concept of Clerics being more Charisma than Wisdom, but then Wisdom begins lacking a defining purpose. So perhpas it is more a question of how clerics use Wisdom, which leads me to picture Buddha, the Buddha doesn't have a forcefull personality, instead his complete lack of personality is the goal. It is his "knowledge", how attuned he is to the world and the people in it. Wisdom is being able to recognize another person and lift them up. Charisma is being able to carry them along woth you. Or soemthing to that effect. 3 AM over here so I'm starting to lose coherency.
I'll admit, I've only lightly browsed the thread, but I'd like to chime in with an opinion. I'm sure you've heard my rant before, but I feel it needs said.
I HATE racial ability score penalties. I loathe them with a seething passion that is rivalled only by the most hate filled spawn of the Nine Hells.
And if D&D Next used them, I would refuse to play it.
Seriously, that's one of the few things I define as an absolute deal breaker.
Some of my fondest character ideas are non-standard race/class combinations. My Dragonborn Rogue, my Half-Orc Sorcerer....characters I find much more interesting than the fiftieth variation on the theme of Dwarf Fighter or Elf Wizard.
But such a character is much harder to play in a system that uses racial ability score penalties.
In a bonus only system, sure, my race's bonuses might not line up perfectly with my class, but I can still play the class. I won't have optimized stats, but I'm still a productive member of the party. I just place my highest stat in the appropriate ability score, and let my racial bonuses bring up otherwise low stats.
But a system that uses ability score penalties, I'm suddenly being penalized for playing something different. I'm being punished for not following the cliches. My Half-Orc Sorcerer? Even if I put my highest stat in Charisma, I can't be as good at level 1 as the best sorcerers of other races. I'm slightly less able to contribute to the party now. And like I said, I don't care about optimization, but it just feels bad when your primary stat for your class gets penalized because you don't want to play the cliche race/class combo.
And the part that makes me really mad is this: I don't play nonstandard race/class combos just for the sake of being gimmicky. I play them as a creative challenge. When I decided to make a Dragonborn Rogue, I was only partially motivated by the desire to play a counter stereotype. I also sat down and asked myself "How can I make a Dragonborn Rogue who feels like a legitimate character? Why is he a Rogue? How does his culture's emphasis on 'honour' influence his own behaviour? What makes a Dragonborn Rogue different from a Halfling Rogue or an Elf Rogue? What makes him different from a Dragonborn Fighter or Dragonborn Paladin?"
I don't choose my race because of stats. If given the option of "Human is +1 to any, other races are +1, +1, -1, -1" then I'm going to choose the race that best fits my concept regardless of stats. If I want to play a crafty thief who has just enough magical talent to learn a few small tricks to enhance their skills, I'm going to play a High Elf Rogue with Magic-User as my speciality. If I want to play a character I based loosely off of Faust of German legend, I'm going to play a Human Warlock. Not because of stats, but because it's what the concept wants.
I just don't feel like racial ability penalties will bring any good to the system, and I rather dislike seeing topics filled with them. I will campaign hard to keep them out of D&D Next.
D&D Experience Level: Relatively new First Edition: 4th Known Editions: 4th, 3.5 --- Magic Experience Level: Fairly skilled First Expansion: 7th Edition Play Style: Very Casual
Ignoring the lack of Lightning Genasi (obviously the coolest and best of them all )
I suspect 5e will return to the “classical four elements” - air, water, fire, earth - from Greek philosophy. So, the 4e “storm element” is lumping back into the air element. Thus air covers lightning and thunder too. Note, air covers watery clouds, and fiery lightning. Water covers cold, thus windy blizzards. Fire covers earthy smoke, soot, and volcanic magma. Earth covers wet mud, clay, and hot sand, but is generally versatile covering everything from salt to stonework to gems to metalwork. Each element can overlap the other elements a little bit.
Hopefully, 5e will also emphasize the classical fifth element, which is especially important in the medieval age: namely spirit (the substance souls, angels, and celestial bodies are made out of), also called quintessence and ether. The concept of ether remains current into the modern period with radio “waves” being understood as rippling thru the sublime element of “ether”. However the scientific language shifted over to light itself (electro-magnetic radiation), emphasizing how the photon itself is both a particle and wave. With light itself being its own wave, it seems less useful to refer to the concept of ether. In any case, the fifth classical element - spirit - equates with light and covers force effects and radiant effects.
So, the Air Genasi also covers the storm effects. Notice, the Storm Giant similarly lists as associating with the element of air.
I don't fully agree with your stats. While Genasi are supposed to be a "magical" race and Intelligence is the "magical" stat, I don't see them as being particularly intelligent.
Ignoring class conventions for the moment I'd say Genasi should have a general bonus to Charisma, as that is the stat for force of personality. Who can be more passionate than a guy who embodies fire? More joyful than a girl who embodies the winds? Someone who argues like flowing water? And while a guy made of stone seems like a personality downer ... just try changing the beliefs of a guy whose great-great grandfather was a mountain, then get back to me.
I agree with you, Charisma works well for the Genasi. When people were speculating about 4e alternative racial abilities, Charisma seemed to me to be the obvious choice. Instead, in addition to Intelligence-Strength, they added the choice of Intelligence-Constitution. There was a need for races with Int-Con, and it seems the developers used the Genasi as one of the races to meet this need. By doing so, the developers made the Genasi Intelligent, more than any other ability, since all Genasi receive an Intelligence boost.
So, in addition to the Intelligence score, the variations in physical abilities correspond to the abilities of actual Elementals. For example, the Air Elementals are considered highly Dexterous but not especially strong or tough. It seems difficult to stat the abilities of the Water Elemental. 3e has them as fairly strong and tough but not especially dexterous.
The fact Genasi have exceptional Intelligence, contrasts dramatically with elementals who have animal Intelligence 4. Even Elemental Elders only have 10. This Intelligence makes the Genasi a surprising and important kind of Elemental. More needs to be done with flavor implication of this ability mechanic. They could even be the nobles of the elemental worlds - at the very least its magical researchers.
I wanted to explain where these ability scores for the Genasi are coming from. There is reasonably strong precedence for them in the D&D tradition - albeit it also seems nothing is carved in stone.
I agree Charisma seems very important for the passionate flavor - and even the mechanics of innate magic - perhaps even psionically telekinetic. The Fire Genasi works well with pyrokinesis - “fire bending” - for example.
This also has the interesting effect of making them closer to the sorcerer class, which would seem to be a better "magic user" class for them than the wizard. After all, a fire genasi shouldn't need to study to hard to figure out how to shoot fire from his hands... he kind of gets fire on an instintive level wouldn't you say?
I feel the game designers need to rethink the Sorcerer class from the ground up, both to make the class more coherent and to make room within the game for whatever it is that the class does that isnt already covered by Wizard spells, Psion innate magic, and Warlock gishiness.
But it occurs to me, the Genasi can actually be “sorcerers” in the technically correct sense, if their Charisma is influencing actual elemental “spirits”, so these Elementals are the ones who cause these effects.
In any case, I agree the Genasi magic seems innate - whether by embodying the element as part of their nature or whether naturally influencing the behavior of other Elementals. It has little to do with Wizard research.
As for their secondary stats... I agree with Earth Genasi getting Strength and Air Genasi getting Dexterity, these are pretty self-explanatory. I'm tempted to say Fire and Water should also get Str and Dex respectively. I've heard Genasi were "supposed" to fill the Swordmage class, so having each get either the finesse fighting or strength fighting stat would represent that. I defintely would argue for Water getting Dex for the flexibility and flow aspects of water, I can't quite see where you got Constitution for them. Fire is trickier, strength works well as Fire is often representive of the unstoppable fighter who "consumes" his foe with attack after attack, but I can see where you got Dex for fire's grace aspects... you could also argue Intelligence if it wasn't a main ability, but personally I would stick with Fire as a Str.
Now personally, and to bring in the general disscusion, I'm not a fan of stat penalties. Mostly because I recognize each stat as vitally important at different times, and I haven't had a group reliable enough to risk my character having a glaring flaw. Yes, I admit it. I want my characters to be at least decent at most things and I recognize that won't happen.
If I were to pick negatives I'd do the following. For Air I'd probably chose Constitution over Strength. Gale force winds are very powerful and I'd picture an airy character as more frail than weak. Earth I'd stick with Dex as a negative, lumbering and moving slowly fits that image. For Fire... I'd probably pick Wisdom as the negative to reflect their higher potential to "explode" and let their feelings override them. All Genasi have this to a degree, but Fire more than the others I'd say. Water is problematic (stupid water being gas, solid, and liquid) but I'd probably keep them opposite of Fire and make Intelligence their negative. They are more care-free and "floaty" so details pass them by and I'd say they'd care less about the world as a whole and their for wouldn't be studious.
I don't know if this "steps on the toes" of some of the other races, but with only six stats I'd say that's bound to happen to a degree. And if two races are equally good for stats, then flavor and racial abilities will differentiate them enough as far as I can tell.
Your recommendation for Genasi abilities are excellent.
In fact, all four avoid stepping on any toes of other races. It is easy to use these abilities emphases.
Looking closely. I agree the hit to Con works much better for the Air archetype. So, Air +Cha +Dex −Con seems perfect. Likewise, Fire +Cha +Str −Wis expresses well a fiery explosion. Earth +Cha +Str −Dex seems obvious physically but the Charisma also conveys well the enduring persistence of Willpower.
Water is just difficult tricky to stat. Where 3e makes the Water Elemental non-dexterous, I agree the concept of fluidity seems to suggest the “slipperiness”, “evasiveness”, and “flexibility” of Dexterity. It is hard for me to see water as less intelligent tho. The “lucidity” of water, its luminosity and so on, make water seem “bright”. It some reallife traditions use the element of water to symbolize the intellect, for example (as well as compassion). Then again, other traditions use water to refer to emotions (usually calm) and the unconscious.
Even tho water hits hard with a tremendous force when gushing, one of the qualities of water is to yield to move around other forces. Maybe give water the penalty to Strength? So, Water +Cha +Dex −Str? Very tricky.
Despite what the D&D tradition might suggest for the Genasi, I prefer these abilities featuring Charisma as the primary ability for the Genasi race. If we can find a way to make sense of Water, I plan to relocate the Genasi subraces to the +Cha locations in the table.
I also disagree with the "Uber Mensch" human, but I don't think +1 to Any will satisify people by itself. We really need some defining traits.
Stat arrays... well like I said I want my characters as balanced as possible. Ideally a +1 for every modifier, but that leads to me being less effective. Lowering those numbers could work, but it could also lead to people feeling their character's don't grow as much as they'd like. Adding three seperate elements (Defense, Skill, Attack) would seem to be slightly more balanced, but then reduces the simplicity we are going for by adding more upfront number crunching, and a terrible headache when those numbers change and you have to track them all down.
I'd also agree with the concept of Clerics being more Charisma than Wisdom, but then Wisdom begins lacking a defining purpose. So perhpas it is more a question of how clerics use Wisdom, which leads me to picture Buddha, the Buddha doesn't have a forcefull personality, instead his complete lack of personality is the goal. It is his "knowledge", how attuned he is to the world and the people in it. Wisdom is being able to recognize another person and lift them up. Charisma is being able to carry them along woth you. Or soemthing to that effect. 3 AM over here so I'm starting to lose coherency.
Good thread by the way.
There is a notable segment of players who strongly dislike racial ability score penalties. So you Chaosmancer and ZeldaFan42 arent alone.
Personally, I like a single “achilles heal” for flavor. On the other hand, the current playtest Human effectively gives penalty to EVERY ability of EVERY Nonhuman race - and I cant stand it. So I sympathize with how serious the problem of an unwanted penalty can be.
Out of curiosity, how do both of you feel about the compromise arrived at this thread?
Where the Nonhuman gets: +1 +1 −1
The player has the option to relocate one of the two bonuses to any of the other four abilities. This means they can use it to neutralize the penalty.
Effectively: +1 to either of the two racial abilities
) I don't fully agree with your stats. While Genasi are supposed to be a "magical" race and Intelligence is the "magical" stat, I don't see them as being particularly intelligent. Ignoring class conventions for the moment I'd say Genasi should have a general bonus to Charisma, as that is the stat for force of personality. Who can be more passionate than a guy who embodies fire? More joyful than a girl who embodies the winds? Someone who argues like flowing water? And while a guy made of stone seems like a personality downer... just try changing the beliefs of a guy whose great-great grandfather was a mountain, then get back to me 
