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Switch to Forum Live View Legends and Lore: Bounded Acuracy
13 months ago  ::  Jun 04, 2012 - 12:22AM #1
Plaguescarred
Date Joined: May 12, 2009
Posts: 16,534
Legends and Lore:
Bounded Accuracy

by Rodney Thompson

Conventional D&D wisdom tells us that the maxim "the numbers go up" is an inherent part of the class and level progression in D&D. While that might be true, in the next iteration of the game we're experimenting with something we call the bounded accuracy system.

Talk about this column here.
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13 months ago  ::  Jun 04, 2012 - 12:44AM #2
greatfrito
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Date Joined: Jun 27, 2004
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This is what Old School Hack already does.  It works in that game, no reason it can't work here.
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Yes, I am expressing my opinions (even complaints - le gasp!) about the current iteration of the play-test that we actually have in front of us.

No, I'm not going to wait for you to tell me when it's okay to start expressing my concerns (unless you are WotC).

(And no, my comments on this forum are not of the same tone or quality as my actual survey feedback.)

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13 months ago  ::  Jun 04, 2012 - 12:55AM #3
Crimson_Concerto
Date Joined: Aug 28, 2005
Posts: 9,968
This actually sounds pretty awesome. Plus, from now on, any time somebody in these boards has a new idea or proposes something new and somebody else responds with some bull about "that's counter to D&D history and tradition, so it's bad and will never happen", we can all point to bounded accuracy.

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"Really full of win. A minotaur that is actually attractive for more than just melee classes." - Cpt_Micha

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13 months ago  ::  Jun 04, 2012 - 12:57AM #4
Areleth
Date Joined: Jan 12, 2012
Posts: 562
"Furthermore, gaining levels grants the characters new capabilities, which go much farther toward making your character feel different than simple numerical increases."

Fighters.

*giggle*

Other than that:

Getting better at something means actually getting better at something.
I dunno, I guess it seems harmless enough. It makes me wonder just how many +1s they predict players will be getting though. It also seems to fall inline with the older edition players and their manner of thinking that a +1 Sword should be special, and I oppose their viewpoints on principle.

Nonspecialized characters can more easily participate in many scenes.
I fear that this is part of an attempt to justify classes not being balanced to contribute in each pillar, which is something I'm very much set against.

The DM's monster roster expands, never contracts.
I can't see any issue with this.

Bounded accuracy makes it easier to DM and easier to adjudicate improvised scenes.
Things being easier to DM is always a plus. I hope they still give guidelines in the book though. Relying on DMs to eventually get it right is just lazy.

It opens up new possibilities of encounter and adventure design.
I'm happy about this. I think. Its really hard for me to tell when I'm happy about something involving 5e at this point. I'm fairly used to disappointment and it feels weird.

It is easier for players and DMs to understand the relative strength and difficulty of things.
I don't see any big downside here.

It's good for verisimilitude.
Oh my how I have grown to hate that word, much as I'm sure the older editions players hate the word 'balance'. At this point it feels like a keyword for "This is really going to piss you off. Tee hee." This doesn't seem terrible though. Still... I don't trust that word. Not at all.
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13 months ago  ::  Jun 04, 2012 - 1:01AM #5
edwin_su
Date Joined: Aug 25, 2007
Posts: 2,854
I wonder if ability score increases will still be in, if sow that seems one of the few ways to increase to hit.

and i wonder what they are planing with the + on magical weapons, it used to only be a small part of your to hit bonus but if they are still going forn the +1 to +5 magic items that would mean they would be a huge chunk of your to hit in the next editiion.
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13 months ago  ::  Jun 04, 2012 - 1:17AM #6
FallingIcicle
Date Joined: Jun 28, 2006
Posts: 982

I agree with almost everything that was said in the article.

My only concern is with all the talk of hit point and damage bloat, which is just as problematic as bonus bloat but even less realistic. A mob of peasents won't be a non-threat because they can't hit you, they'll be a non-threat because the wizard can effortlessly wipe them off the face of the map with one area effect spell, due to their low hp and the wizard's high damage.

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13 months ago  ::  Jun 04, 2012 - 1:21AM #7
lokiare
Date Joined: Nov 3, 2008
Posts: 14,703
"After a short period of DMing, DMs should gain a clear sense of how to assign DCs to various tasks."

Wow, looks like they didn't learn a thing from DM fiat problems in the past or on the forums...

"Thus, when it comes time to improvise, a link has been created between the difficulty of the challenge in the world (balancing as you run across this rickety bridge is pretty tough due to the breaking planks, especially if you're not a nimble character) and the target number. Since those target numbers don't change, the longer a DM runs his or her game, the easier it is going to be to set quick target numbers, improvise monster attack bonuses and AC, or determine just what kind of bonus a skilled NPC has to a particular check. The DM's understanding of how difficult tasks are ceases to be a moving target under a bounded accuracy system."

Yeah, unless the DM sets the DC wrong at the start of the game, then the rest of the DCs will cascade out of wack for the rest of the game.

"It opens up new possibilities of encounter and adventure design. A 1st-level character might not fight the black dragon plaguing the town in a face-to-face fight and expect to survive. But if they rally the town to their side, outfit the guards with bows and arrows, and whittle the dragon down with dozens of attacks instead of only four or five, the possibilities grow. With the bounded accuracy system, lower-level creatures banding together can erode a higher-level creature's hit points, which cuts both ways; now, fights involving hordes of orcs against the higher-level party can be threatening using only the basic orc stat block, and the city militia can still battle against the fire giants rampaging at the gates without having to inflate the statistics of the city guards to make that possible."

Yeah, it also means you can't put save or die mechanics in the game on the PCs side or they will just bypass whole groups of monsters or boss monsters. It won't matter what level they are or what level the monsters are.

"Likewise, a DM knows that he or she can reasonably expect players to understand the difficulty of things based purely on their in-world description, and so the DM can focus more on the details of the world rather than on setting player expectations."

This is just pure bunk. They won't understand anything until the DM tells them what the DC is...

"For example, we can say that breaking down an iron-banded wooden door is a DC 17 check"

Yeah, except they didn't do that, they said easy, moderate, hard, and impossible. They didn't tell you jack about what you were supposed to be doing.

"Now, we want to avoid situations where DMs feel bound by the numbers. ("Hey," says the player, "you said it was an iron-bound wooden door and I rolled a 17, what do you mean I didn't break it down?") We hope to do that by making sure we focus more on teaching DMs how to determine DCs and other numbers, and letting them adjust descriptions and difficulties based on their needs."

This part is hilarious. Its exactly the situation that is created. Expectations don't cross from table to table and the players have no real clue how hard a specific obstacle is without asking the DM what the DC is. One party might have a high str fighter because they know their DM sets DCs for strength based tasks high, but when they take that character to another table the new DM might set strength DCs low and Cha high, other DMs might auto-succeed on cha checks (like role-players that ignore in game rules and make you role-play it out). In other words they enable **** DMs, and turn mediocre DMs into **** DMs by default...
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13 months ago  ::  Jun 04, 2012 - 1:45AM #8
TheCosmicKid
Date Joined: Sep 5, 2009
Posts: 769

Jun 4, 2012 -- 1:17AM, FallingIcicle wrote:


I agree with almost everything that was said in the article.

My only concern is with all the talk of hit point and damage bloat, which is just as problematic as bonus bloat but even less realistic. A mob of peasents won't be a non-threat because they can't hit you, they'll be a non-threat because the wizard can effortlessly wipe them off the face of the map with one area effect spell, due to their low hp and the wizard's high damage.



I take your point, but your example does not strike me as particularly unrealistic.  I am worried about what damage rolls and hit point totals will look like at higher levels - and, of course, I hope they're balanced against each other so that we don't have the 4e padded sumo wrestler phenomenon again.

Aside from that, bounded accuracy seems on paper to offer a lot of benefits to the game.

Jun 4, 2012 -- 1:21AM, lokiare wrote:

Yeah, unless the DM sets the DC wrong at the start of the game, then the rest of the DCs will cascade out of wack for the rest of the game.



A problem that would only be compounded if DCs scaled.  I am unsure what you're trying to prove here.

Jun 4, 2012 -- 1:21AM, lokiare wrote:

Yeah, it also means you can't put save or die mechanics in the game on the PCs side or they will just bypass whole groups of monsters or boss monsters. It won't matter what level they are or what level the monsters are.



Are you aware of the hit point threshold mechanic that they've been talking about using for powerful effects?  You can see it in the playtest on the sleep spell.  Expect save-or-dies to be handled like that.

Jun 4, 2012 -- 1:21AM, lokiare wrote:

This part is hilarious. Its exactly the situation that is created. Expectations don't cross from table to table and the players have no real clue how hard a specific obstacle is without asking the DM what the DC is. One party might have a high str fighter because they know their DM sets DCs for strength based tasks high, but when they take that character to another table the new DM might set strength DCs low and Cha high, other DMs might auto-succeed on cha checks (like role-players that ignore in game rules and make you role-play it out). In other words they enable **** DMs, and turn mediocre DMs into **** DMs by default...



I'm, again, not sure what you're trying to prove here, or how you get to here from what Thompson wrote.

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13 months ago  ::  Jun 04, 2012 - 1:47AM #9
jonathan_sicari
Date Joined: Sep 1, 2008
Posts: 3,353
I actually hate this idea. To illustrate shortly, the idea that the party should grab the militia to fight the dragon example he uses means that we are adding lots (and potentially many more lots) of dice rolls to the combat, extending the very thing they want to shorten (not to mention the large amount of casualties that the use of an adventuring party is supposed to limit).

Also, while I'm aware of the illusion of progression that the half level + other stuff that 4th provides, that illusion is precious to me and seems lacking in this playtest so far (not to mention Dark Priest or Hobgoblin Warlord, hitting on 15+ if your lucky is not my idea of fun).
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13 months ago  ::  Jun 04, 2012 - 2:00AM #10
thewok
Date Joined: Jul 31, 2007
Posts: 798

Jun 4, 2012 -- 1:47AM, jonathan_sicari wrote:

I actually hate this idea. To illustrate shortly, the idea that the party should grab the militia to fight the dragon example he uses means that we are adding lots (and potentially many more lots) of dice rolls to the combat, extending the very thing they want to shorten (not to mention the large amount of casualties that the use of an adventuring party is supposed to limit).



I don't think he's saying that people need to form up EQ-style raid parties to go kill the dragon on a regular basis.  The point is that, while the heroes will find the dragon a challenge at an appropriate level, it is possible, however inadvisable, to take it on at early levels, with help, and without changing the dragon's stats to make it hittable.  People aren't going to do that on a regular basis, because of any number of reasons, not the least of which is the fact that most militia would consider hunting a dragon in its lair suicidal.  Still, it's possible, which wasn't the case before--at least in 3E and 4E.

Also, while I'm aware of the illusion of progression that the half level + other stuff that 4th provides, that illusion is precious to me and seems lacking in this playtest so far (not to mention Dark Priest or Hobgoblin Warlord, hitting on 15+ if your lucky is not my idea of fun).



This is something I don't really want to comment on as a condemnation of the system, apart from saying that monsters are far from set in stone.  There is some definite work that needs to be done on the monster end of things, and monsters like the hobgoblin warlord are fine examples of the shortcomings of the system as we see it now.

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