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1 year ago ::
May 31, 2012 - 6:57PM
#11
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Then why not just be a thief? If you want to be an mba spamming rogue, thief is the way to go. As it is, though, he is still better just using daggers. A +4 d6 is better than a +3 d8.
Because thieves don't get 3 minor action encounter attacks and a full compliment of dailies. The answer is not black and white. Brutal Scoundrel chargers were out long before thieves were ever in play, and they're still strong as ever.
Shortsword vs Dagger (on a Charge Shocktrooper):
+29 vs Ref means he hits on a 3 against normalized defenses. With a full charge package (Vanguard, Horned Helm), 2x Str, IAoP, Gauntlets of Destruction (worth 4 DPR), Focus and TWF, he's throwing something like 6d8+2d6+29/Brutal 1 for 71 damage.
Contrast 71 damage/90% with 69 damage/95% and you're looking at 63.9 vs 65.5 DPR. Sure, the math favors the dagger marginally but do you really split hairs over 1 DPR? This also becomes a moot point at level 21, where you're at +31 vs Ref and hitting 95% even with a shortsword, and have a +3 damage advantage over a dagger user.
tl;dr: Shortsword is not a bad option with a Shocktrooper charger. OP's decision is perfectly mechanically sound.
Edit: Also, note that Shocktrooper does not improve a Rapier's dice to a D10. Only works with offhand property weapons.
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1 year ago ::
May 31, 2012 - 7:07PM
#12
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Date Joined:
Feb 13, 2006
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I think you missed my previous post, but that is okay. I am not stating you /have/ to do it a certain way. Op stated a flavor reason. Good enough. But there did seem to be a bit of a misconception regarding the math, so I wanted to clarify that. And yes, there were charge brutal rogues before. But, as I noted, when your charge is better than half your dailies and you can't use a minor after charging, those options are largely irrelevant. The theif's vastly superior MBA just seals the deal when it comes to a charger.
I am not one of those who will ever tell someone they are "doing it wrong." The OP asked for some optimization advice. I outlined options that, strictly speaking, are better op-wise. What he or anyone else decides to do with that is fine with me.
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1 year ago ::
May 31, 2012 - 7:10PM
#13
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Date Joined:
Feb 13, 2006
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On Ren's edit: oh? Did not realize that. Here I thought it was all weapons. Fair enough. A background giving the same result as a pp though is not good support for that pp.
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1 year ago ::
May 31, 2012 - 7:16PM
#14
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I outlined options that, strictly speaking, are better op-wise. What he or anyone else decides to do with that is fine with me.
This is the piece that I'm respectfully disagreeing with. Throughout your career, two of your minors (Tumbling Strike, Snap Shot) are usable under any situation before a charge, and a third (Low Slash) can be used to enable charge space, not to mention the chance to find yourself starting adjacent to an enemy at some point is not at all uncommon. As far as your dailies go, you're fully capable of gaining 3 off-turn attacks if you choose, or have the option to a free action attack, or charge-able powers that are [W] upgrades to a basic charge. That's far from irrelevant.
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1 year ago ::
May 31, 2012 - 7:44PM
#15
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Date Joined:
Oct 11, 2010
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I didn't see a theme there. Sohei gets you that extra minor action swing and some pretty good utilities.
+1 on the Shock Trooper E11. Hard to argue with a triple hitter that can daze.
Wizards of the Coast can suck it.
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1 year ago ::
May 31, 2012 - 7:54PM
#16
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Date Joined:
Feb 13, 2006
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If you are starting adjacent to a target to use a minor on, then you aren't going to be able to charge that same target (except for low slash, granted. But you could easily use martial versatility to swap out your pp power for low slash or snap shot). So your nova potential isn't really helped any. And as a thief, their tricks essentially guarentee that no matter the setup, you can charge with CA (save regular issues a charger faces like immoblize), plus getting fun options like prone.
The versatilty of a rogue is undisputed compared to a thief. But if you are going to invest in the charger option instead of enhancing said power versatility, then you might as well make that option as strong as possible.
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1 year ago ::
May 31, 2012 - 8:55PM
#17
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If you are starting adjacent to a target to use a minor on, then you aren't going to be able to charge that same target (except for low slash, granted. But you could easily use martial versatility to swap out your pp power for low slash or snap shot). So your nova potential isn't really helped any.
Huh?
Low Slash: Slide 1, Shift 1, Charge
Snap Shot: Move 2, Ranged attack, Charge
Tumbling Strike: Is Tumbling Strike. Use it, Charge
Past level 17, a credible nova regardless of situation is Low Slash + Tumbling Strike + Charge or Tumbling Strike + Snap Shot + Charge. To claim that having access to two extra minor attacks doesn't help your nova potential is just an untenable argument.
Also, I assume you mean to take Reserve Manuver to swap out your E11 for Low Slash. Except you don't, because you don't ever trade out Shocktrooper's E11, and it should be plainly obvious why. The feat Scoundrel Training will let you trade a Thief's Backstab for a rogue encounter power, which defaults to Tumbling Strike past level 17.
The competition between the Thief and Rogue's power lineups become:
Shocking Twister, Tumbling Strike, 2 Minor attacks
vs
Shocking Twister, Tumbling Strike, 2 Backstabs With the Thief also a feat behind.
Nova advantage goes to the rogue by a mile. With CA also being trivially easy to get, what the comparison really boils down to is a bigger nova plus a full set of dailies vs at-will proning. Like I said, it's not a black or white easy choice. But when asked why not be a Thief, there's a pretty huge reason why.
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1 year ago ::
May 31, 2012 - 9:28PM
#18
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Date Joined:
Feb 13, 2006
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If a thief, he won't need cunning stalker, so feats are the same. And I meant both, but I forgot the encounter for storm trooper was actually good (charger or not). But if a thief, I still think a different pp is the way to go (so it'd be 2 backstab and 2 minors). Also, not being tied to str means 20 dex.
That said, you've made a good case for storm trooper, so I consider myself educated.
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1 year ago ::
Jun 01, 2012 - 9:18AM
#19
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Date Joined:
Apr 25, 2011
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If a thief, he won't need cunning stalker, so feats are the same. And I meant both, but I forgot the encounter for storm trooper was actually good (charger or not). But if a thief, I still think a different pp is the way to go (so it'd be 2 backstab and 2 minors). Also, not being tied to str means 20 dex.
That said, you've made a good case for storm trooper, so I consider myself educated.
Oh, you definitely don't want the STORM Trooper Paragon Path. That PP is notorious for poor accuracy.
Presumably you meant Shock Trooper. 
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1 year ago ::
Jun 01, 2012 - 9:59AM
#20
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Date Joined:
Feb 13, 2006
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^Haha. Yea....herp derp :s
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