for level 1 low HP monsters, sure. are you going to play level 1 forever? your coutner argument falls apart when you put it up against the 88 HP ogre "just kill it instead" doesn't work, theres a bunch of other monsters in the campaign that are beefy enough to warrent teamwork.
Possibly, we havn't gotten that far. Though i still feel teamwork is missing (or at least has been vastly reduced). Nearly every power in 4e did something teamwork-worthy. Weather it was extra movement, zones or burst that took advantage of that movement, or simply giving a +1 to an adjacent ally, teamwork was prolific.
and level 1 4e had the same problem "minions everywhere? just kill them" and "oh, that ones not a minion, oh well, just kill it"
1) I havn't seen many "all minion" battles in 4e, even at low levels.
2) You'd often kill it, AND give a bonus to an ally.
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way. Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken. Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken. King Fisher Does an excellent job at keeping an enemy disabled in a few ways. Strong. Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading. Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered. Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square. Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong. Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked. Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic. Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation. Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses. Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat. Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent. Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof. Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it. Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways. Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful. The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken. Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken Unnamed Avenger|Runepriest/Hammer of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered. Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5. Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong. Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight, only far more broken. Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken. Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.
@shinquickman i am currently DM-ing my hobby shops "realm of the spider queen" wednesday encounters (sure, it's 4e-essentials) but teamwork isn't really required.
@Mellored
right, and my point is that bonuses =/= teamwork. it's forced, it's cold, it's mechanical, and it doesn't bring the team together at the table. why do you need bonuses to learn to work together in a game? not having those bonuses is what seperates the real "teamwork" from the "and ally shift x squares and does an irish jig" bonuses that 4th gave.
for level 1 low HP monsters, sure. are you going to play level 1 forever? your coutner argument falls apart when you put it up against the 88 HP ogre "just kill it instead" doesn't work, theres a bunch of other monsters in the campaign that are beefy enough to warrent teamwork.
I guess that the wizard spamming Ray of Frost at the ogre while the rest of the party shoots it to death with ranged weapons is teamwork, not very exciting mind you, but they did fight it as a team.
and level 1 4e had the same problem "minions everywhere? just kill them" and "oh, that ones not a minion, oh well, just kill it"
My first experiences with 4E were the opposite, yes minions die in a hurry but I still remember starting my regular group against some kobolds and the surprise on some of their faces when they hit one for solid damage and it was still alive.
As to the lack of team work it's the fault of both the game system and the players. In my experience as a DM (25+ years) most players want their characters to have some "air time", be it in combat or during RP moments. My group has no trouble helping out another character to set up a great RP or combat moment, but spending your characters actions doing nothing but helping someone else gets old fast.
It was one the things my players that favour clerics loved about 4E - the chance to heal someone and still attack. The option was present on the Dwarven cleric in the playtest materials, but sorely lacking on the human. On a side note, they also loved access to non-divine healing. While the comments around the table of "Who gets to play the cleric" made me feel nostalgic; they were also a sign that this needs to be addressed as D&D Next grows.
4E also offered a high level of character customization, which often helped inspire a players vision of their character and led to more creative play on the table top.
For the record, while I have played and enjoyed 4E, there were plenty f things wrong with it. Number one for me was the scaling "to hit" and defense math that relied far too heavily on magic items. The AW-E-D mechanic also became a bit too repetitive across the classes.
play 1st level characters and go to the undead area of the Caves of Chaos (3rd level content) and you will see LOTS of teamwork and strategy.
My group did exactly this. We had a fighter, a cleric, a rogue, a 1st level wizard and a 2nd level wizard. And while it took a LOT out of us - every encounter someone (or multiple someones) went down - we defeated all our enemies through creative movement, knowing what spells did what, the ability to improvise, and some lucky dice rolling.
IMO, mechanics DID bring the team together. If there's no benifit (or worse, a detriment), then there's no reason to do it. I'm not going to have my pixie warlord fart in the oger's nose unless it actually helps my team.
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way. Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken. Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken. King Fisher Does an excellent job at keeping an enemy disabled in a few ways. Strong. Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading. Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered. Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square. Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong. Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked. Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic. Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation. Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses. Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat. Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent. Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof. Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it. Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways. Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful. The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken. Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken Unnamed Avenger|Runepriest/Hammer of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered. Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5. Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong. Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight, only far more broken. Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken. Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.
I Think that people in this forum complained that 4ed did not allow them to play a party with 4 strikers. As far as I understand then problem was that 4ed was so "cooperative" that you need a character with each role in the party to succeed.
I think that WOTC responded to this by making the game less cooperative. (But I may be wrong here)
DISCLAIMER: I never played 4ed, so I may misunderstand some of the rules.
I Think that people in this forum complained that 4ed did not allow them to play a party with 4 strikers. As far as I understand then problem was that 4ed was so "cooperative" that you need a character with each role in the party to succeed.
We've played all striker parties. There was still more teamwork then i see now. (though not much more).
You also don't need ever role. Not even close.
I think that WOTC responded to this by making the game less cooperative. (But I may be wrong here)
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way. Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken. Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken. King Fisher Does an excellent job at keeping an enemy disabled in a few ways. Strong. Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading. Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered. Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square. Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong. Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked. Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic. Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation. Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses. Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat. Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent. Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof. Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it. Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways. Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful. The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken. Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken Unnamed Avenger|Runepriest/Hammer of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered. Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5. Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong. Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight, only far more broken. Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken. Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.
I can't really give specific examples, but the playtest felt less like a team, and more like a group of individuals. Everyone runs off and slaps their own kobold instead of positioning them for the wizard to blast.
I had pretty much the opposite impression / experience. In many of the the lower level 4e games I've been in each person seemed to trying to maximize their 3 actions to achieve personal gains, frequently at the expense of the other players (pushing enemies out of others reach, killing single enemies in a bunch rather then stragglers so that area effects were less effective, etc): This wasn't every game, but certainly a lot.
In the 5e game however the PCs herded enemies into chokespots near the fighter and clericadin, distracted enemies so the rogue could get into position behind them, relay carried a potion to a downed wizard, threw oil down to maximize the burning hands attack the wizard was about to drop, cast light on crossbow bolts in hope of blinding the enemy, and carefully planned / timed an ambush in an attempt to spread out the attacks and take out all the foes simultanously. I haven't actually observed this level of team cooperation in some time.
Maybe it was just a fluke or the people involved, but I don't think the system discourages teamwork. Its more that the teamwork required seems less mechanical: Its less about positioning and status effect combos and more about... asymmetric warfare I guess.
